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Rob Fraser
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Here
http://www.ebay.de/itm/XX-Panzer-Tiger-E...=item4ab0102ea7

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Rob Fraser
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Here.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/XX-Panzer-Tiger-N...=item336d834c8d

No Connection to the seller.

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Rob Fraser
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More from the same selller.



Here
http://www.ebay.de/itm/XX-Panzer-Tiger-E...=item336da4420a

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Chris Brown
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Link:
http://www.deutschefotothek.de, search for 'panzer grasser' and scroll down the page

Chris

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Grant Hall †
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From Schneiders 'Totenkopf Tigers';
the barrel kill ring number and wear look to match:



Gallery size:



Grant.

PS: fantastic '932' photo above..Great find Chris.

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Hartmut von Holdt
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Ebay






ba-re

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Hartmut von Holdt

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John Winner
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Hartmut, isn't that is just a cropped Bundesarchive photo. I wonder why they have it listed as 100% original, I would think the original is in the archives.

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John Winner - Sturmmörser/Jagdtiger/Ferdinand-Elefant

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At least it is new for the galery.

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Hartmut von Holdt

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Oh, I thought I saw it in there before. I think I have a couple more form that series, I will check.

***All I have are uncropped copies of picture that are already there.

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Grant Hall †
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This pic posted by Rob in the 'Tiger zuordenen' thread;



..is another of '922', from this same scene:



The guy in the parka on the right is in the cupola on the top pic, and the guy on the left is straddling the barrel.
The missing right mudguard can also just been seen between the two standing right.

Grant.

(I've this and the new 912 pic above to the gallery)

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Rob Fraser
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Hi Grant
From memory this was from the same seller.


Missing guard and head light.
Any thoughts?

Rob

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Zitat:
Original von Rob Fraser
Hi Grant
From memory this was from the same seller.


Missing guard and head light.
Any thoughts?

Rob


Hi Rob,
I think it most probably is also '922'. To be honest I haven't yet had time to look at it properly.

What I can say for certain, it is definitely a 'Totenkopf' Tiger.
It's a match for this one from the unidentified section:

(This pic can also be found on page 137 of the 'Totenkopf Tigers' book)

The marks on the front plate are the same:



As you say; this is probably '922'. I'll have a better look at them later.
They do look the same at first glance:



Grant.

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Gallery updates and additions Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Hi,
I have a few additions for the gallery and also a few of the Tigers from the 'Tiger nicht identifiziert' can now be identified.
There's quite a lot to go through so I'll probably do this over a couple posts.

First, a couple of the simpler ones:

'923'
From the 'Tiger nicht identifiziert' section:







'933'
Two pics from the 'Tiger nicht identifiziert' section:



On the first pic the turret impact mark and camo match with this, and other, '933' pics :


With the other pic, the bent first fender, hull marks/camo look to match this other '933' pic.
Plus there's two '933' crew members in the photo;
Artur Privatski and Ludwig Lachner:



And a not so simple one: 'Early' '902' ??
Courtesy of Schneider's 'Totenkopf Tigers' book, another (full) pic of this Tiger from the 'Tiger nicht identifiziert' section:


Though taken at a later date looking at the mudguard, this one:


At first glance it looks like '982', but obviously it can't be.
The '9' and the '2' are definite looking closely at the book photo.
As I see it, the middle number can't be a '1', a '2' or a '3' (the '3' would have a flat top and the '2' a flat bottom), so it must be a '0'. What do you think?

I won't update the gallery immediately. Opinions welcome, especially with '902'

Grant.

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Hi Grant,

Excellent research as usual.

The suggestion of '902' looks likely, but the central digit could be a '2' still. I'm not up on Totenkopf, but if this was '902' would it be a Befehlstiger with the additional hull side aerial mount?

Looks as though more work is coming your way from ebay. A couple of matches to the "possible 922" (one duplicated?) and more...



These three seem to match on mantlet damage







Link:
http://www.ebay.de/sch/attersee-antik/m....sid=p4340.l2562

Chris.

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BTW: The nearest Tiger here is 923 again.




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Hi Chris, Hartmut

'902'?
"The suggestion of '902' looks likely, but the central digit could be a '2' still. I'm not up on Totenkopf, but if this was '902' would it be a Befehlstiger with the additional hull side aerial mount?"
The Tiger in the pic doesn't look to match the pics we have '922'.
And from what I understand/read, I believe they only had one command Tiger and that was delivered after the Kharkow period. The one delivered on 20th May '43, which I think became '901'.
'901's hull features are too late for it to be an original command Tiger from the 4./Ko. period.
We also know now that 'mid' version '902' was also non-command Tiger.

"Looks as though more work is coming your way from ebay. A couple of matches to the "possible 922" (one duplicated?) and more..."
Gawd.. not more unglücklich
Seriously though, thanks for the link. I hadn't seen these.

'923'
Good spot Hartmut, looks a good match for '923':


I believe this one is also '923' on the same railway car, but from a lower angle:


And this one also matches '923':


I've got a rather long '911' post coming, I'll update the gallery after that.

Grant.

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Hi,
The '911' section has now been updated with 6 pics. 3 new additions and 3 from the 'Tiger nicht identifiziert'.
On the new pics certain features are obvious that can also be seen on those from 'Tiger nicht identifiziert'.

One of the new pics, similiar to the one already in the gallery but much clearer:


..and another new addition:


Features to note:
6 kill rings on barrel
White spot on front plate
Double bend (offset) in left mudguard
First left side fender bent up*
Bullet hole in left headlight*
(* on later pics of '911' the left headlight has been removed and the side fender has been bent back down (too far).
Also the 'slung' tow cable switched from the right to the left side. I've tried to place them in this order in the gallery)

Some or all these features can be seen on the 3 'Tiger nicht identifiziert'.

These 2 posted by Chris:



And here's two pics of '911' with it's turret off getting some maintenence. The top pic is from the 'Tiger nicht identifiziert' and matches the new pic:


Hope this is clear for all?

Grant.

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I can't find a match for some of the pics posted by Chris a couple of posts up.
I can say that these 4 are the same Tiger:






I wasn't sure about the 4th pic, but this 'new' pic shows that the mudguard flap positions are the same on all 5 of these pics,
plus what Chris spotted with the damage around the mantlet MG opening:


Maybe someone has an idea or match to which Tiger this could be?
Until then, these 5 have been added (in a group) to the 'Tiger nicht identifiziert' section.



These 2 'late' Tigers have also been added to the 'Tiger nicht identifiziert' section.
This one from Chris's post shows the wooden block supporting the barrel and what looks like a smaller muzzle:
(the seller did have other 9/Ko. personnel pics from '44)


..and this 'late' that W.Schneider captioned as April'43. But it looks more like Poland, Summer'44:



Grant.

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These 4 have been added to the '922' section;

These 2 posted by Rob & Chris:


..plus one from the 'Tiger nicht identifiziert' and one new pic:


Also added, a new one showing the front end of '912' :


...with '921' in the background:


Grant.

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This 'Tiger nicht identifiziert' looks to be another one of '923'.
Though the photo was taken at a later date and it's little bit battered and shot up, all the features do match.
Note the mark on the front hull plate:




And has anyone seen of have access to this photo without the arrow?



I suspect this one (plus the two with the 14 kill rings) might actually be '921' not '924'. ??

Grant.

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This pic looks to be from the same ebay seller as those above, judging by the red mark on it:



In the cupola is that man Lachner again, who in the summer of '44 was an Unterscharführer and commander of Tiger '923'.

Here he is again, sitting on '923' in Rumania '44:


Make's me wonder if this pic, from the same seller, was also taken from the same turret roof?


Grant.

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This photo can be found on the cover and inside Schneider's 'Totenkopf Tigers' (Eng.ver) and also in Trojca's 'Tiger Vol.I'.
It shows two of the five new 'mid' Tigers that were delivered to the Ko. on 3 Oct'43. :



There's only a couple of notable things on this relatively new Tiger:
1.The missing top left side mantlet bolt.
2.The kink in the left 3rd side fender.


Though taken a few months later and the Tiger is a little more battered, both these things can be seen on this gallery pic of '902':



I think we can also rule out it being '922', as we have pics of 'early' Tiger '922' taking later than this in winter 43/44.

Grant.

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In this pic you can just see the 'Grass skirt' camo.
Also there's something behind the front right mudguard flap with black marks on. I'm not sure what it is? It looks a little too high to be the end of the fender?



Both these things can be seen on this pic of late '911':



Grant.

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This one from 'Tiger nicht identifiziert' section :

..is another of late Tiger '923'.

It's in the same location and position as this pic:


In both pics you can see that the turret is in the 9 o'clock position with the barrel elevated.
And (again) that man Lachner, Kommandant '923' at the time, is in both pics.



In close-up you can also see the '92-'. Unforunately, there's a tunic hanging in the tree hiding the last digit:


Grant.

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Hi,
There are currently 7 pics in the '924' section.
First, just to establish that the top 3 pics show a different Tiger than the bottom 4 pics:
The top Tiger has no turret track hangers with the number in the middle of the turret, but does have bow spare tracks.
The bottom Tiger has turret track hangers with the number forward of the turret, but doesn't have bow spare tracks.
They also have different types of mantlets:



Although this doesn't necessarily mean that they can't both be '924's... I believe the top 3 pics are actually Tiger '921'.

If you compare the right-hand pic above (in Red), with this gallery '921' pic:


..you can see 3 of the same crewman (+ 1 maybe= ? ) :


I added the 'inside the Tiger crew' pics because the Kommander pic from this group is also a match to the gallery Kommander pic:



Another thing to note is the position and height of the number on the right side of '921';


..looks a very good match for the number on the left side of this turret:


Thoughts and/or opinions would be very very welcome.

Grant.

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Hi Grant,

This 921/924 question has been an anomaly for a while; as you say there could have been two #924's in the summer of 1943, but it's not a very likely scenario.

I think that you have put together a compelling argument that the first three photos are of 921 not 924.

Excellent work once again,

Chris.

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Thanks Chris,
I'll leave it a day or so to see if anyone else has an opinion and then, if there's no objections, I'll update the gallery.

Grant.

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This Befehlstiger photo appears in Wolfgang Schneider's 'Les Tiger de la Totenkopf' book. It is captioned as showing Klingenbeck and Stephan and the source as being 'Klingenbeck'. A Rttf. Klingenbeck from the I-Staffel is listed as attending post-war reunions.



The camo however is more suggestive of LAH than Totenkopf, and seems to match photos of '405' from LAH.



There is also a matching impact on the mantlet.




What we seem to have is an ex-LAH Tiger in Totenkopf service. In his TICII, Schneider tells us that Totenkopf received one Tiger from LAH on 20May43 and a further eight on 29Jul43. He also details that of the six Tigers in total received on 20May43, one was a Befehlstiger. I would suggest that this is it.

As the Balkenkreuz position does not match gallery photos of '901' it would seem logical for this to have been '902'.

Any thoughts?

Chris.

Gallery size:

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Hi Chris,
I think this is probably just an LAH photo.
From what I understand the TK never had more than one Befehlstiger at any one time. Which does make sense as they were only a single company unit. Whereas other Tiger units made up of 3 companies had 3 Befehlstiger.

When the TK 4/Ko. got their first 9 Tigers in Jan'43, there was no Befehltiger issued, the Befehlspanzers were Pz.III's.
The first Befehlstiger they recieved was the one on the 20th May'43, the '901' we have photos of. Which corresponds with when they became the 9/.Ko., a Tiger only company,and all other panzers were reallocated to other companies.

I'm not near my books right now, so I'll have a look later to see if there's anything about this 'Klingenbeck' man.
Unfortunately, as you are aware, the 'Totenkopf Tigers' book has many non-TK Tiger pics. I think this might be the case again.

Grant.

PS: If you haven't already seen it on ML. I got this info from Ian Michael Wood:
" Of note the 5 Tigers delivered on the 31.7.44 formed a new 4th Platoon and these Tigers weren't seen until the 15.10.44 when the Kompanie regrouped."
Worth noting.

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Zitat:
Original von Grant Hall
Hi Chris,
I think this is probably just an LAH photo.
From what I understand the TK never had more than one Befehlstiger at any one time. Which does make sense as they were only a single company unit. Whereas other Tiger units made up of 3 companies had 3 Befehlstiger.

When the TK 4/Ko. got their first 9 Tigers in Jan'43, there was no Befehltiger issued, the Befehlspanzers were Pz.III's.
The first Befehlstiger they recieved was the one on the 20th May'43, the '901' we have photos of. Which corresponds with when they became the 9/.Ko., a Tiger only company,and all other panzers were reallocated to other companies.

I'm not near my books right now, so I'll have a look later to see if there's anything about this 'Klingenbeck' man.
Unfortunately, as you are aware, the 'Totenkopf Tigers' book has many non-TK Tiger pics. I think this might be the case again.

Grant.

PS: If you haven't already seen it on ML. I got this info from Ian Michael Wood:
" Of note the 5 Tigers delivered on the 31.7.44 formed a new 4th Platoon and these Tigers weren't seen until the 15.10.44 when the Kompanie regrouped."
Worth noting.



I don´t get this logic. A staff Kompanie had 3 Befehls-Tiger, no matter how many Kompanies they lead.

As the heavy tank Kompanie of the 9./SS-PR.3 they don´t need a staff vehicle at all cause they had no own staff. 9./SS-PR.3 was under staff command of the PR.3.

The 9th of PR.3 never made it higher then just a Kompanie even if they got 12 or 20 Tigers. So they had Kompanie leader Tiger. The number of Kompanie chief Tigers(Sd.Kfz.268) were two, not one....and so they had 901 and 902.

The second Kompanie chief Tiger could be a Befehlswagen if they had it handy.

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Just to muddy the waters...

In TICII Schneider gives the following structure for 01JUL43

901 902
911 912 913 914
921 922 923 924
931 932 933 934

But in the Totenkopf book for pre-Zitadelle is an additional 'reserve' Tiger to the command section:

901 902 Reserve
911 912 913 914
921 922 923 924
931 932 933 934

Could this be a supernumerary Befehlswagen? As LAH handed over all its surviving Tigers when it left for Italy, any surviving Befehlstiger ought to have gone to either 2SS or 3SS.

Is Schneider contactable to discuss why the later book shows a different structure?

Chris.

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"Just to muddy the waters...

In TICII Schneider gives the following structure for 01JUL43

901 902
911 912 913 914
921 922 923 924
931 932 933 934

But in the Totenkopf book for pre-Zitadelle is an additional 'reserve' Tiger to the command section:

901 902 Reserve
911 912 913 914
921 922 923 924
931 932 933 934

Chris"


Hi guys,
The 2nd structure (15) is most likely correct. In TICII he also states this "20th May'43; total of 15 Tigers." But with only 10 operational on the 30 May'43.
By the start of 'Zitadelle' he states 11 as operational.
Of these 11, I think 4 (maybe more?) were from the old 4/Ko. '913','921','923' and '933'.

Back on the Befehlstiger question. I'm not aware of any evidence, photographic or written that suggests the Kompany ever had more than one Befehlstiger.
On the contrary, the photos and reports available do seem to point to them only ever having one Befehlstiger at any given time.

We have photos of 'mid' '902' and photos of (what I believe is) 'early' '902', and neither is a Befehlstiger.
All the photos of 'early','mid' and 'late' '901' do show a Befehlstiger.

Instead of repeating what was said on ML about this subject, here's a link to the thread:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/thr...9+Kp.+For+Grant

Grant.

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Maybe i get the whole question wrong but i thought we are discussing the possibility of the former "LAH" Befehlstiger Sd.Kfz. 268 #405/1305 came to "Totenkopf" and was used as the second Kompanie chief Tiger 902 in that unit.

That Tiger had the equipment for the job and i see no reason why this can´t happend. Afaik the Tiger was not lost in LAH service and Schneider show him in the Totenkopf inventary. We read that Totenkopf taked over 8 Tigers of LAH after Kursk, so what is so abstract on it?

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Hi Hartmut,
What's abstract for me is:
If we except that the Tiger in this pic is, could be or could of become '902', a Befehlstiger...


...it means that this Tiger isn't '902':


There is nothing in the top photo to suggest any connection to or that it's in the possession of the TK.
It still has the LAH camo, the LAH white only balkenkreuz and there are no turret numbers visible.
The only thing we have is the caption, and unfortunately, as well as the many non-TK Tiger photos in the 'Totenkopf Tigers' book, many of the captions are also incorrect.
The captions states:
"There were many breakdowns on the march to Budy. Klingenbeck and Stephan repair damage to the running gear. This tank belonged to the previous issue, which can be determined by the barrel recoil grooves that appear after the firing of the gun"
According to Schneider the march to Budy began on the 20th May'43. The only Befehlstiger of the TK at that time was a new one, the one sent on the 15th May'43.

Grant.

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same mantlet? Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Hi,
I've been staring at this one that much I think I might be seeing things. So please I need some second opinions .
It's very hard to tell on the bottom pic because the Tiger's parked under the shadow of a tree, but am I seeing the same 'camo curve' to the right of the sight openings as on the top pic?



Thanks,
Grant.

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Hi,
The above post is about this photo from the 'Totenkopf Tigers' book..
Captioned along the lines of "June '43, crews in their newly issued camo overalls"..
The features on this Tiger include; no turret track hangers and the K.F.F.2 drivers periscope:


The only TK Tigers from this period with these same features are: '913','921','923' and '933'.
Looking at the mantlets of these 4 Tigers:




....only '921' has the same matching style of mantlet.



Also, maybe just a coincedence?, but the man nearest the camera looks an awful lot like the loader from '921':






I must add that '912' could have also been a candidate, as there are no ID'd pics of '912' from this period.
Personally I don't think it is '912'...because I believe this one to be '912':

But that's for another post smile

Grant.

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Grant,

I think you may be on to something here, but can I ask how you have eliminated numbers 931 and 934 which Schneider leads us to expect at July 1943?

Chris.

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Zitat:
Original von Chris Brown
Grant,

I think you may be on to something here, but can I ask how you have eliminated numbers 931 and 934 which Schneider leads us to expect at July 1943?

Chris.


Hi Chris,
A very good question and I do have a answer for you.. I think.
But first I'll have to sort through the pile of scribbles I seem to have amassed on this. unglücklich

Grant.

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TK Tigers; end May'43 to begin July'43 Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Hi,
An attempt to explain what turret numbers I believe should be looked for period May'43 through early July'43.
Firstly, this is just my own opinion, based on photos, reports, info/research of others (mainly Ian Michael Wood) and my own assumptions. I'm not suggesting any of this is fact.

The references tell of a total of 15 Tigers;
6 of the original 4/Ko.'s Jan'43 issue.
3 from SS-Pz.Korps on the 10th May'43 "..that had undergone major repairs".
6 "new" delivered on the 20th May'43. (5 + 1 Befehlstiger).
Going from production features, the 6 from the Jan'43 issue and the 6 new are quite easy to seperate. It's the 3 from SS-Pz.Korps that are the problem.

Here's a list of the referenced 15 Tigers of the period.
In bold are the Tigers we have photos of and/or mention of in reports from the same period.
Followed by which group I think the Tiger belongs to based on the production features; the original Jan'43 issue or May'43 issue.
Then the CO's name and the date if mentioned in reports in brackets :

901 May'43 Befehls (Schröder 8-7-43 then Köhler to 12-7-43 then Schüffler)
902 May'43 (Bieber 6-7-43)
Reserve.

911 May'43 (Köhler 8-7-43, then takes over 901)
912 Jan'43 (Glöckl 7-7-43)
913 Jan'43 (Fein)
914 May'43 (Müller 7-7-43)

921 Jan'43 (Quade?)
922 May'43 (Frank?)
923 Jan'43
924 Mixed features; K.F.F.2 hull/ turret trackhangers? (Hoffmann?)

931
932 May'43
933 Jan'43 (Baumann)
934

This accounts for 12 Tigers: 6 new Tigers, 5 old Tigers and 1 mongrel (924).

From the last delivery on the 20th May through all of June there are never more than 10 Tigers combat ready.
On the start date of 'Zitadelle', 5th July, for the first time there are 11 combat ready Tigers.
I find strange because this was quite a long period of no action, mostly transit, rest and refitting.
Anyway, I don't want to go through everything written, but I find this combat ready account from 1 July'43 the most interesting:

(*Edit: A copy of the report from 1st July '43 added):


Where the other 3 Tigers are I don't know, maybe sent for major repair?
But 12 Tigers makes much more sense of the report numbers to me. And also matches what we have in photos and reports.

Grant.

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Thanks for the explanation Grant. I still think you are probably correct, it would be nice to get a little more evidence.

Chris.

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