Registrierung Mitgliederliste Administratoren und Moderatoren Suche Häufig gestellte Fragen Zur Startseite
 

Tiger im Focus » Tiger-Abteilungen Heer » sPzAbt.502/511 » "Initial" Tiger numbers » Hallo Gast [anmelden|registrieren]
Druckvorschau | An Freund senden | Thema zu Favoriten hinzufügen
Neues Thema erstellen Antwort erstellen
Autor
Beitrag « Vorheriges Thema | Nächstes Thema »
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

"Initial" Tiger numbers Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

I'm looking at the chassis number and loss reports of the "initial" Tigers. I will publish a summary on my own site, but first I'd like to hear your opinions on this: a suggested explanation of the turret numbers.

29/Aug/42 Arrival at the front

111 112
121 122

22/Sep/42 A Tiger is lost

111 112
121

27/Sep/42 Three more Tigers have arrived

101
111 112
121 122 123

26/Oct/42 Two more Tigers arrive

100 101 102
111 112
121 122 123

18/Jan/43 Five Tigers are lost

111
122 123

(We don't have any photos of 101, but I infer it because there is a 102.)

David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

19.10.2011 02:16 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

RE: "Initial" Tiger numbers Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Well, it seems that I was wrong.
The French publication "Tigres a Leningrad" makes it clear that 102 existed before the final two Tigers arrived. It was present on 23 September. In fact, in the set of photos pinning it to that date, it doesn't even look new.

I also know that 111 and 121 were in the initial batch of 4 Tigers. And since 100 was chassis 250009, and this was in the third batch delivered to the unit in Germany, it didn't arrive until 26 October.

So I suggest this revised timeline:

29/Aug/42 Arrival at the front

101 102
111
121

22/Sep/42 A Tiger is lost

102
111
121

27/Sep/42 Three more Tigers have arrived

102
111 112 113
121 122

26/Oct/42 Two more Tigers arrive

100 102
111 112 113
121 122 123


18/Jan/43 Five Tigers are lost

111
122 123


Now, I'm not saying that this must be the correct sequence; but I'd like to hear if anyone can see a problem in it.

David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

20.10.2011 01:38 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Hartmut von Holdt
Administrator


Dabei seit: 16.02.2008
Beiträge: 2134

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Hello David,

maybe it would help to know what numbers the Panzer III in 502 had.

There is no evidence of a Tiger 101 or 113. Also we not see a 131 or 132 so far. But who will know if 101 was a Tiger or a Panzer III?....Same with 113.

I would be sceptical if i see lots of photos of all the confirmed Tigers 111, 112, 102 etc., but none of 101 or 113.

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

21.10.2011 21:32 Hartmut von Holdt ist offline Email an Hartmut von Holdt senden Homepage von Hartmut von Holdt Beiträge von Hartmut von Holdt suchen Nehmen Sie Hartmut von Holdt in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt

There is no evidence of a Tiger 101 or 113.



Do you think the unit would decide to avoid an obvious "leader" tank? ? Because it would be a good target?

The photos seem to show that 102 was in the first 4 Tigers. Perhaps there was never a 101.

Now, since the planned size of a heavy battalion was 4 platoons, perhaps they arranged the first 4 Tigers like this:

102
111
121
131


David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

23.10.2011 00:57 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Greg Del Nero
Mitglied


Dabei seit: 20.03.2008
Beiträge: 58

101 and 131 Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Hello David and Hartmut

101 was a Pz. III. A photo exists from the Diehls album. I also own a photo of Pz. III tactical number 131. Most likely, the reason that we have not found Tigers with these numbers is that they did not exist!

Greg

23.10.2011 02:09 Greg Del Nero ist offline Email an Greg Del Nero senden Beiträge von Greg Del Nero suchen Nehmen Sie Greg Del Nero in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Greg:

Unfortunately there exists a photo of a Pz.3 numbered "102" and unquestionably part of s.Pz.Abt. 502 at this time.
And there was a Tiger "102".

Either they considered the different types of tank to be independently numbered, or they were willing to reuse numbers of lost tanks.

David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

23.10.2011 02:34 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
John Winner
Expert


Dabei seit: 12.02.2010
Beiträge: 222

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

I would hazard to guess that Pz. III "102" was part of 1./s.Pz.Abt.502 before there were enough Tigers to fill out 1./s.Pz.Abt.502, was later knocked out or moved to a different part of the Abt. when more Tigers became available.

__________________
John Winner - Sturmmörser/Jagdtiger/Ferdinand-Elefant

23.10.2011 02:59 John Winner ist offline Email an John Winner senden Beiträge von John Winner suchen Nehmen Sie John Winner in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Hartmut von Holdt
Administrator


Dabei seit: 16.02.2008
Beiträge: 2134

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Zitat:
Original von John Winner
I would hazard to guess that Pz. III "102" was part of 1./s.Pz.Abt.502 before there were enough Tigers to fill out 1./s.Pz.Abt.502, was later knocked out or moved to a different part of the Abt. when more Tigers became available.



I would guess it was the other way round and Tiger 102 was one of the early losses.

The Panzer III #102 showes the number in a cutout. That means probably he made it to springtime with winter cammo in the weeks before. Or maybe they paint over the old number with grey before they made the new number. May the date of sept.42 wich Schneider gave for this pic is not correct?



__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

23.10.2011 13:26 Hartmut von Holdt ist offline Email an Hartmut von Holdt senden Homepage von Hartmut von Holdt Beiträge von Hartmut von Holdt suchen Nehmen Sie Hartmut von Holdt in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

The first Tiger loss was on 22 September.



The Touratier book captions this photo as being taken on 23 September. If true, this means that Tiger 102 survived until the battles of mid January; as I've said elsewhere, I don't think it survived them.



The data strongly suggests that this is the first loss. No other Tiger is described as burning out without exploding. The three survivors of the January battles would have, at least, the remains of welding on the front plate for spare track holders.

Does anyone own the original of this photo?

David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

23.10.2011 15:20 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt

May the date of sept.42 wich Schneider gave for this pic is not correct?





According to the French publication "Tigres a Leningrad", the man in the photo is Max Lötsch, who took many of the photos of the Initial Tigers.
The text states that he was the gunner of "102", a Pz.3, in November.
I think that Tiger "102" also existed in November.

The caption on the photo dates it as 17 September, on the journey to the front. "Tigers in Combat" confirms that a portion of the battalion was put on trains and shipped out from Germany on 16-18 September.

David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

23.10.2011 18:52 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Greg Del Nero
Mitglied


Dabei seit: 20.03.2008
Beiträge: 58

First loss Tiger Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Hi David

I own that photo. If you wish to have a high res scan posted we will have to move the conversation to Collector's Corner.

Greg

24.10.2011 02:59 Greg Del Nero ist offline Email an Greg Del Nero senden Beiträge von Greg Del Nero suchen Nehmen Sie Greg Del Nero in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Hartmut von Holdt
Administrator


Dabei seit: 16.02.2008
Beiträge: 2134

RE: 101 and 131 Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Zitat:
Original von Greg Del Nero
Hello David and Hartmut

101 was a Pz. III. A photo exists from the Diehls album. I also own a photo of Pz. III tactical number 131. Most likely, the reason that we have not found Tigers with these numbers is that they did not exist!

Greg



Hello Greg,

can you please show the pics of 101 and 131? It would help alot.

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

24.10.2011 10:17 Hartmut von Holdt ist offline Email an Hartmut von Holdt senden Homepage von Hartmut von Holdt Beiträge von Hartmut von Holdt suchen Nehmen Sie Hartmut von Holdt in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

RE: First loss Tiger Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Zitat:
Original von Greg Del Nero
Hi David

I own that photo. If you wish to have a high res scan posted we will have to move the conversation to Collector's Corner.

Greg


Greg:

Thank you. I started a thread there.


David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

24.10.2011 13:16 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Hartmut von Holdt
Administrator


Dabei seit: 16.02.2008
Beiträge: 2134

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

A possible explanation for the double turret number 102 could be that the Tiger 102 was a staff Tiger and had actually number I02(a common practice in 42).

Do we have a clear photo showing his turret number starting with a "1" ?

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

24.10.2011 21:55 Hartmut von Holdt ist offline Email an Hartmut von Holdt senden Homepage von Hartmut von Holdt Beiträge von Hartmut von Holdt suchen Nehmen Sie Hartmut von Holdt in Ihre Freundesliste auf
John Winner
Expert


Dabei seit: 12.02.2010
Beiträge: 222

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

I have been looking at the chassis numbers and the chart supplied in Tigers in Combat I and some things are not making sense. On the chart labled as Dec 1942 we have in 1./s.Pz.Abt. 502 9 Tigers and 10 Pz. III. according to Schneider 1./s.Pz.Abt. 502 did receive 9 Tigers by 25 Sept. 1942 (counting the 2 Tigers actually in 2./s.Pz.Abt. 502 inventory until 13 Oct), it had also received 9 Pz. III Ausf. N. (a difference of 1 Pz. III).

He says 2 Tigers delivered on 19 Aug, and 2 on 20 Aug. These would be the 4 entrained on 23 Aug and recieved at the front in Mga on 29 Aug.

On 16 Sept 2 more Tigers are sent to the front on 2 seperate transports.

On 18 Sept 1 more Tiger is sent to the front.

I am supposing this is the "Further elements of the battalion arrive by train" mentioned for 25 Sept.

Then he says on 30 Sept "Relocation to Tossno. 9 Tigers, 18 Panzer IIIs (Model N) and 7 Panzer IIIs (Model L) are operational". I can only count 7 Tigers delivered by this date.

15 Oct 2 Tigers leave for the front and arrive on 26 Oct. These 2 had been assigned to 2./s.Pz.Abt. 502 on 25 Sept, but were turned over to 1./s.Pz.Abt. 502 on 13 Oct.

This all accounts for the 9 Tigers in 1./s.Pz.Abt. 502's that had been recieved by 26 Oct.

Now, on to my point.

On 22 Sept 1 Pz. III is knocked out (I do not know if it is a total loss), this could be "102", if the caption in Tigers in Combat I is correct. The Abt. then receives 2 more Tigers on 26 Oct, one of these could then have been numbered "102" to replace the lost Pz. III.

Also one last thing, do we have any idea which chassis numbers were delivered on which transport? It makes sense that they were delivered in chassis number order since they were delivered only a couple at a time. But this may not actually be the case.

__________________
John Winner - Sturmmörser/Jagdtiger/Ferdinand-Elefant

24.10.2011 23:13 John Winner ist offline Email an John Winner senden Beiträge von John Winner suchen Nehmen Sie John Winner in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt

Do we have a clear photo showing his turret number starting with a "1" ?


__________________
Tiger research tweets

24.10.2011 23:48 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Zitat:
Original von John Winner
Also one last thing, do we have any idea which chassis numbers were delivered on which transport?




Ron Klages' "Trail of the Tigers" gives some chassis numbers and the delivery dates of all Tiger E.

For the Initial Tigers, he has them delivered in strict numerical order from the factory.

Let's not forget, by the way, that a Tiger was lost on 22 September, so the unit never had more than of these 8 Tigers at once. We have photos of 7 different numbers on them. If a number was reused, then we're almost done.

David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

24.10.2011 23:57 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
John Winner
Expert


Dabei seit: 12.02.2010
Beiträge: 222

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

I am guessing that the Tiger that was "lost" on 22 Sept was on the books until it was destroyed on 25 Nov, as they may have tought there was still a chance of recovery and High Command had forbidden its destruction.

__________________
John Winner - Sturmmörser/Jagdtiger/Ferdinand-Elefant

25.10.2011 00:12 John Winner ist offline Email an John Winner senden Beiträge von John Winner suchen Nehmen Sie John Winner in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

I have written a page combining the number and callsign data from Tigers In Combat, Combat Tactics, and Tigers at Leningrad.

David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

25.10.2011 00:29 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
John Winner
Expert


Dabei seit: 12.02.2010
Beiträge: 222

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

I am also assuming that this Tiger "123" is possibly a re-numbering of a different Tiger. As far as I can see in the initial makeup of 1./s.Pz.Abt. 502 the first 2 tanks in a Zug were Tigers (eg. 111, 112, 121,122 and so on)

__________________
John Winner - Sturmmörser/Jagdtiger/Ferdinand-Elefant

25.10.2011 00:33 John Winner ist offline Email an John Winner senden Beiträge von John Winner suchen Nehmen Sie John Winner in Ihre Freundesliste auf
John Winner
Expert


Dabei seit: 12.02.2010
Beiträge: 222

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Just to keep a running list of known tactical numbers with chassis numbers, we have:

250002 - Nr. 111
250004 - Nr. 121
250009 - Nr. 100

__________________
John Winner - Sturmmörser/Jagdtiger/Ferdinand-Elefant

25.10.2011 00:46 John Winner ist offline Email an John Winner senden Beiträge von John Winner suchen Nehmen Sie John Winner in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Greg has kindly let me see this photo in detail;





I have enhanced the image in every way that I can think of, but I can't see a number on the turret. And, unfortunately, there are signs of smoke residue on many parts of the hull; so a number could be obscured.

There is no visible evidence of weld marks on the front plate, but we would expect them if this Tiger had ever had spare track holders. We can't be sure, but it looks like all of the Tigers were given those holders in November.

There is also no sign of whitewash camouflage.

All in all, the photo is still the only one consistent with reports of the first Tiger loss on 22 September. In particular, why is there an open engine hatch on a vehicle that clearly burnt out and is not being recovered? What could you expect to find in, or reclaim from, the engine compartment after such a fire?
But this is consistent with the mandated placing of a demolition charge on top of the engine. The damaged Tiger of 22 September was indeed blown up in November.

David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

25.10.2011 02:10 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
John Winner
Expert


Dabei seit: 12.02.2010
Beiträge: 222

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

In which source does it say that the Tiger lost on 22 Sept. burnt out? Schneider just says it was hit and broke down due to engine failure, the three other Tigers bogged down. He then states that one could not be recovered but makes no mention as to which Tiger was left behind, the battle damaged Tiger or just one that got stuck. He just says it was the Tiger that went the furthest.


This picture may have been taken after the abandoned Tiger was destroyed on 25 Nov., but even if it was just a damaged engine I would think they would at least try and recover it. I did notice it was totaly burnt out as there is no rubber left on the road wheels. I also have not found anything about other initial Tigers being burnt out.

__________________
John Winner - Sturmmörser/Jagdtiger/Ferdinand-Elefant

25.10.2011 03:28 John Winner ist offline Email an John Winner senden Beiträge von John Winner suchen Nehmen Sie John Winner in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Hartmut von Holdt
Administrator


Dabei seit: 16.02.2008
Beiträge: 2134

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Do we have any photo of a Panzer III of the "Leichte Kompanie".....what i think was in fact the Stabskompanie?

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

25.10.2011 06:27 Hartmut von Holdt ist offline Email an Hartmut von Holdt senden Homepage von Hartmut von Holdt Beiträge von Hartmut von Holdt suchen Nehmen Sie Hartmut von Holdt in Ihre Freundesliste auf
John Winner
Expert


Dabei seit: 12.02.2010
Beiträge: 222

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

From what I know the Stabskompanie Pz. IIIs would be Ausf. N

__________________
John Winner - Sturmmörser/Jagdtiger/Ferdinand-Elefant

25.10.2011 06:30 John Winner ist offline Email an John Winner senden Beiträge von John Winner suchen Nehmen Sie John Winner in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Hartmut von Holdt
Administrator


Dabei seit: 16.02.2008
Beiträge: 2134

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Zitat:
Original von John Winner
From what I know the Stabskompanie Pz. IIIs would be Ausf. N


Panzer III N were also in 1. and 2. Zug. For sure 124 was a N and probably 114 too. 102 was an N and so they had a maximum of 6 Panzer III N in the staff. I01 and I02 could be staff Tigers similar to the organization of 501 Tunisia.

The Panzer III L were used as 101 and very probably as the 3. and 4. Zug. 131 to 134 and 141 to 144.

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

25.10.2011 06:35 Hartmut von Holdt ist offline Email an Hartmut von Holdt senden Homepage von Hartmut von Holdt Beiträge von Hartmut von Holdt suchen Nehmen Sie Hartmut von Holdt in Ihre Freundesliste auf
John Winner
Expert


Dabei seit: 12.02.2010
Beiträge: 222

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Not to get off subject for long but how many pictures of s.Pz.Abt. 502 Pz. IIIs do we have?

__________________
John Winner - Sturmmörser/Jagdtiger/Ferdinand-Elefant

25.10.2011 06:56 John Winner ist offline Email an John Winner senden Beiträge von John Winner suchen Nehmen Sie John Winner in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Zitat:
Original von John Winner
In which source does it say that the Tiger lost on 22 Sept. burnt out?


Tiger I and II Combat Tactics by Doyle and Jentz, page 39:
"the guns of three Tigers were damaged....two Tigers were severely damaged...the latter Tiger was burnt out and can't be recovered."

David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

25.10.2011 09:03 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
John Winner
Expert


Dabei seit: 12.02.2010
Beiträge: 222

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Well, that is completly different from what Schneider has to say. Guess I will have to hunt down a copy of that book.

**edit

I found what is probably the same information in Panzer Truppen I by Jentz. It is a letter describing the first two engagements by 1./s.Pz.Abt. 502.

__________________
John Winner - Sturmmörser/Jagdtiger/Ferdinand-Elefant

25.10.2011 09:35 John Winner ist offline Email an John Winner senden Beiträge von John Winner suchen Nehmen Sie John Winner in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Gentlemen; of the eight Initial Tigers in service for the battles of mid January 1943, four survived and four were destroyed.

The top portion of this photo shows a Tiger lost in that battle. The remaining portions show the four lost Tigers as they were before the fighting.



If our current theory of the painting of these tanks is correct, then the top Tiger must be one of the other four.

Its whitewash has been worn off by weeks in the outdoors, but I have enhanced it and I think that I can see the remains of the pattern.

Do you think that there is a match?

David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

29.10.2011 22:04 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

To get back to the topic of the thread; I have been thinking about the evidence and I propose yet another scheme.

Let's review what we think that we know.

[1] Tigers arrived in batches of 4, 3 and 2.

[2] A Tiger from the final batch became "100", presumably the commander's tank.

[3] Tigers "102", "111" and "121" were from the first batch.

[4] "102" was not the first loss (a photo of it in Tigres à Leningrad is dated 23 September).

[5] There was a Pz.3 numbered "102" for many weeks at least, while there was also a Tiger with the same number.


I conclude that the unit saw no need to avoid number collisions between Tigers and Panzers 3. They were visibly distinct and were addressed by type on the radio. Remember, we are told that "no more than 4 Tigers were in battle at the same time".


My conclusion is that the most sensible numbering for the first Tigers was:
101 102 111 121

and the first loss must therefore be 101.

Then, as more Tigers arrive, we fill out the platoons:

102 111 112 113 121 122

and the commander decides that 102 is getting worn out and he'd like a shiny new Tiger. But to avoid confusion, he won't reuse the number 101:

100 102 111 112 113 121 122 123

and then the disastrous battle;

111 122 123

David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

30.10.2011 10:28 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Hartmut von Holdt
Administrator


Dabei seit: 16.02.2008
Beiträge: 2134

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Zitat:
Original von David Byrden
To get back to the topic of the thread; I have been thinking about the evidence and I propose yet another scheme.

Let's review what we think that we know.

[1] Tigers arrived in batches of 4, 3 and 2.

[2] A Tiger from the final batch became "100", presumably the commander's tank.

[3] Tigers "102", "111" and "121" were from the first batch.

[4] "102" was not the first loss (a photo of it in Tigres à Leningrad is dated 23 September).

[5] There was a Pz.3 numbered "102" for many weeks at least, while there was also a Tiger with the same number.


I conclude that the unit saw no need to avoid number collisions between Tigers and Panzers 3. They were visibly distinct and were addressed by type on the radio. Remember, we are told that "no more than 4 Tigers were in battle at the same time".


My conclusion is that the most sensible numbering for the first Tigers was:
101 102 111 121

and the first loss must therefore be 101.

Then, as more Tigers arrive, we fill out the platoons:

102 111 112 113 121 122

and the commander decides that 102 is getting worn out and he'd like a shiny new Tiger. But to avoid confusion, he won't reuse the number 101:

100 102 111 112 113 121 122 123

and then the disastrous battle;

111 122 123

David



The tanks of 502 were numbered in Germany before they were send to the front.

You meant Tiger 100 was the tank of the commander of the 1.Kompanie right?
Tank 101 was a Panzer III L and tank 102 was a Panzer IIIN. Thats the Kompanie leading group.

We don´t know the strory of Tiger 102(I02), but i seriously doubt that they use same number on two tanks in the same time frame. That would be a very uncommon practice in Tiger units and can´t be the explanation for the photos of these tanks.

I would agree in the numbering for seven Tigers in the 1.Kompanie like you show

Tiger:
100
111 112 113
121 122 123

Panzer III N
102
114
124

Panzer III L
101
131 132 133 134
141 142 143 144

Staff
2 Tigers and 6 Panzer III N


and think that is the most logical system.

The two other Tigers were probably in the staff. That means not that those two Tigers were command versions, they were standard Tigers like the two Tigers in the staff of 501 Tunisia in the same time frame.

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

30.10.2011 11:57 Hartmut von Holdt ist offline Email an Hartmut von Holdt senden Homepage von Hartmut von Holdt Beiträge von Hartmut von Holdt suchen Nehmen Sie Hartmut von Holdt in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Mark Testo


Dabei seit: 16.04.2014
Beiträge: 3

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

I’ve read your work on this forum with great interest and I would like to point out some observations regarding the early Tiger chassis numbers vs. turret numbers:

correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that most people are taking the table in Jentz “Tiger I & II Combat Tactics” on page 41 as the main reference and are reverse engineering turret numbers from this German Army Korps report.

I wish to submit for consideration that there is a Russian book “Early Tigers” by Maxim Kolomiec (Frontline Illustration) that has what appears to be a technical report of the captured Tigers 100 & 121. It appears to be calling 100 – 240004 and 121 – 240009. If you have a Russian member of your staff, it would be a good idea to have a proper translation done. There’s always the possibility that the German report may be wrong as it was written during crisis (heavy losses during a major enemy offensive).

Another inconsistency I ran across was upon reading the Hans Boelter chapter in “Panzer Aces 1”, the company commander’s tank (Gerdtell) took a hit in the mantlet (killing the gunner) the evening that Hans Boelter went on his rampage in mid January 1943. The Tiger 100 (the presumed company commander’s tank) displays no damage at the Moscow park exhibit later that year. The company commander was possibly using another tank.

I hope that this information helps in your research, regards.

17.04.2014 08:44 Mark Testo ist offline Email an Mark Testo senden Beiträge von Mark Testo suchen Nehmen Sie Mark Testo in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Mark Testo


Dabei seit: 16.04.2014
Beiträge: 3

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

forgot one thing...

In Kleine & Kuehn, there is a story written by Major Scultetus in the "Second Battle of Lake Ladoga" section in which he describes the loss of a Tiger number 250006, which sounds more like 250003 in Jentz...another inconsistency.

17.04.2014 08:50 Mark Testo ist offline Email an Mark Testo senden Beiträge von Mark Testo suchen Nehmen Sie Mark Testo in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
Moderator


Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
Beiträge: 1105

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Zitat:
Original von Mark Testo
The Tiger 100 (the presumed company commander’s tank) displays no damage at the Moscow park exhibit later that year.


Interesting.
In a discussion of this Tiger a few years ago, a Russian person not known to me posted a comment about 100; he said that someone he knew had been inside it as a child. The left-hand turret bin, he said, was half full of concrete to protect 2 penetrations of the turret armour. I had no way to verify this.
The interesting part is that would quite plausibly kill the gunner.
David

__________________
Tiger research tweets

17.04.2014 14:35 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Mark Testo


Dabei seit: 16.04.2014
Beiträge: 3

Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

That would explain a few things,

a) there weren't too many weapons the Russians had at that time that could punch through the mantlet. A few towed weapons could, but they would be firing at a distance (and hence, probably wouldn't be going through the mantlet). I'm not sure a T-34/76 could even at point blank range. A T-34/57 might be have been able to, and that would have been a very chance encounter.

I wonder what they did to make the concrete set in such cold weather

b) it also explains why there is only one storage bin in Moscow. The Port side gets shot up in battle, the Starboard side is relocated & filled with cement for a quick field dressing. On to Workers Settlement 5 it goes (& into the history books)

18.04.2014 01:51 Mark Testo ist offline Email an Mark Testo senden Beiträge von Mark Testo suchen Nehmen Sie Mark Testo in Ihre Freundesliste auf
 
Neues Thema erstellen Antwort erstellen
Gehe zu:

Powered by Burning Board Lite 1.0.2 © 2001-2004 WoltLab GmbH