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Hartmut von Holdt
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I like to start this new thread to give a place for 3./503 specials.

In the hope to clear some misterys of this Kompanie we can use this thread.

Turret and hull swapping in the 3./503. The Tigers of the 1.Zug of 3./503 were giving part by part to the 2. and the 3. Zug.


First one is Tiger 331. He was one of the 4 later build Tigers giving to the 3.Zug of the 3. Kompanie from the dliveries of 10 new Tigers in end of March 1943. Those Tigers had the standard bin on the turret and late Feifels.



In late 1943 Tiger 331 was seen with the special bin on the turret wich we know from the former 2./502 Tigers in 3./503. I thought for a long time that 331 was one of the former 2./502 Tigers because of this bin. But actually it was just a turret swapping from an earlier Tiger of 2./502 to a later hull.

For 331 it was early Tiger 311. We see him here in the role of a spare part vehicle.



The turret goes to the hull of Tiger 331.





Renumbering was easy cause the "1" was just overpainted with a "3".

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Hartmut von Holdt
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Now after Chris post his thoughts to Tiger 321 here,

http://www.tiif.de/thread.php?sid=&postid=2625#post2625

i think i have to follow with the next turret/hull swapping in 3./503.



Tiger 321 had his original hull with binocular drivers sight and this notek mount what Chris in his post allready refered to.



But late in 1943 321 was seen with another hull had some features missing.




What happend here was another swapping. Tiger 321 hold his old turret but another hull was needed. Again a Tiger of the 1.Zug of 3./503 was used to keep the Tigers of the 3.Zug in service.




This time Tiger 313 had to give the part.



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Chris Brown
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Interesting Hartmut.



But if the hull belonged to #313 before it was fitted with turret #321, why is the large gouge visible in photos of #313 (discussed earlier this week) not seen in the photos with turret #321?



Also we have good photos of the Balkenkreuz on #321 and there is no visible evidence of the stowage bracket on the cross. This pic is from Trojca's new book.




Perhaps the swap was from #321 to #313?

Chris.

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Hartmut von Holdt
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Well, a swapping from 321 to 313 is not impossible but this would be a bit irritating right? 321 get a second hull from another Tiger and this hull was giving away to 313?

The photo of Tiger 313 were made when 503 was under command of "Das Reich" if Schneider is correct. That happens two times.....August43 and October43.

I would leave the question of the close up in the Bundesarchiv shows 313 open rather than changing the swapping theory from 321 to 313.

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Hartmut von Holdt
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Zitat:
Original von Chris Brown


Perhaps the swap was from #321 to #313?

Chris.


Yes, all in all that seems a 50:50 chance or more.

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Hartmut von Holdt

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I think Tiger 213 of 2./502 became 322 of 3./503.


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Hartmut von Holdt

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This is still a puzzle to me. It should be a 2./502 or 3./503 Tiger with possible Walter Scherf on the horse. Maybe 321?


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Dmitriy Novikov
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Hartmut von Holdt
Zitat:
I think Tiger 213 of 2./502 became 322 of 3./503.

Tiger photo 213 gives little information.Front view of the uncertainty.
More suitable machine 222, it became possible 322 ?


Regards, Dmitry.

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Hartmut von Holdt
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Zitat:
Original von Chris Brown
Interesting Hartmut.



But if the hull belonged to #313 before it was fitted with turret #321, why is the large gouge visible in photos of #313 (discussed earlier this week) not seen in the photos with turret #321?



Also we have good photos of the Balkenkreuz on #321 and there is no visible evidence of the stowage bracket on the cross. This pic is from Trojca's new book.




Perhaps the swap was from #321 to #313?

Chris.



Ok, the hull of 321 and 313 look very similar but they are not the same hull. I finally have seen the front of 313 and it is not like 321.

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Zitat:
Original von Chris Brown
They share markings on the loader's lid as well as the way the helmets hang from the S-Mines pots, so they do seem to be a match.


Have you any suggestions for the turret number?

Chris.



I transfered this from the big thread to here cause it gives probably a better overview if we seperate the Kompanies a bit.


Yesterday i worked a bit on the 3.Kompanie again and like to know what Tiger of the 2./502 became what Tiger in the 3./503.

Some of the 2./502 Tigers had very early features like the shackle holes in the hull extensions front.
One of them was Tiger 211 who became 300 in the 3./503.



And there is another confirmed with Tiger 200 of 2./502.



In 3./503 then it was further more Tiger 313 with this feature. The only other chance if a third Tiger came with this feature it could be only Tiger 314 but sadly a clear front view of him is unknown so far.
Edit: 322 has it too


Coming to the Tiger in question from Chris post, i found a mammoth painted on his front wich i not noticed before.



Also he had initial shackle position and only one clamp for the shovel on the glacys but the second clamp he is missing.
Instead the shovel he had a hammer fixed in the clamp. That is also seen on a pic of Tiger 313.



Together with the other points it gives a good match for Tiger 313.








So the second Tiger with initial shakle position was 313 and he was possible Tiger 200 of 2./502 before.

The question now is...was there another with that feature in 2./502 / 3./503 ? If so it could be only Tiger 314 cause all others had the standard positions for later serial Tigers.

We have one mistery Tiger pic more very probably from 3./503.



Can this be another shot from Tiger 313?
Some strange similaries(for eg the mix of shakle style round and edged like on 313) can be seen to Tiger 313, but on the other hand some strong points (like the gun mantlet gunner binocular section) stands against that.



Need your opinions friends....

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Chris Brown
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Hartmut,

I think that you are correct that 200 of 2./502 became 313 of 3./503.


This photo shows Scherf with Hauptmann Lange, commander of 2./502, in front of 211.


This looks like him again. As commander, his mount would be #200.


The damage around the vision slot does not match any known 3./503 Tiger except possibly the one you have identified as 313.

If you wanted any further confirmation that 200 became 313, this may be it.

Chris.

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Hartmut von Holdt
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Thank you Chris.......great info and yes, points definitely to Tiger 200 cause thats the same cupola!


Is that from the new 503 book?....and if yes, is it worth a buy?

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In adition to Tiger 300 btw



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Hi Hartmut,

the first picture (with German caption) is from the book. Cupola photo is not from the book, I cannot recall the source.

The book contains some new-to-me photos, but not as many as I had hoped. Photo reproduction quality is not good. The text is all in German so not an easy read for most Anglophones. Worth having, but probably not top of the Christmas list.

I made the match from this photo at 'Warfare Through the Lens' where #211 is the Tiger behind, so this had to be 2./502.


With thanks to Stefan de Meyer

Link:
http://ground.warfarethroughthelens.org/...archterm=E13826 (you will need to register/log-in)

Chris.

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In the background of this gallery photo of 223 sits 313.



This close up is from Volker Ruff's Strabokran book


To note in particular are the damaged kugelblende and the high position of the first '3' in relation to the Balkenkreuz.

Hartmut's recently identified front view of 313 has the damaged kugelblende


This photo of 313 from Trojca has the same high position of the first digit in relation to the Balkenkreuz


Chris.

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This must be 312


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Going back to this one, #311 perhaps looks like a strong candidate for ex-213

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
I think Tiger 213 of 2./502 became 322 of 3./503.








The front portion of the first track guard is bent. The right hand flap is damaged such that the top is bent upwards but the bottom corner is bent down.



Looking at the front of #311, reveals a match to this old ebay unknown captioned as being from the Mius Front. There is a trace of whitewash still, but the absence of snow suggests the photos were taken after the transfer to 503 in February 1943.




Chris.

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The gallery photo of 213/502 shows a hit in the lower bin side. Also notice the spacing above and below the hull cross, they are about even.



The hole is confirmed in this photo from the Erinnerungen book



Both hole and spacing are replicated on 311/503



The cross on 322/503 is lower on the hull side, the gap above being greater than the gap below.



Chris.

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Hartmut von Holdt
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I am with you here!


311 shows much of the faded white winter cammo and so it is compareable with 213. And yes, there are alot of similaries and 311 show the very same small damages as 213.


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New to the gallery

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New to the gallery

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Happy New Year Rob!

Lange moved on shortly after 2/502 became 3/503, so I've put this one in the 502 early gallery.

Cheers,

Chris.

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Happy New year Chris!
I hope I got this one right...
smile

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Looks like the well known photos of 334, but they are different(new) to the others.








mummel-05

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RE: 3.Kompanie of 503 Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
I like to start this new thread to give a place for 3./503 specials.

In the hope to clear some misterys of this Kompanie we can use this thread.

Turret and hull swapping in the 3./503. The Tigers of the 1.Zug of 3./503 were giving part by part to the 2. and the 3. Zug.


First one is Tiger 331. He was one of the 4 later build Tigers giving to the 3.Zug of the 3. Kompanie from the dliveries of 10 new Tigers in end of March 1943. Those Tigers had the standard bin on the turret and late Feifels.



In late 1943 Tiger 331 was seen with the special bin on the turret wich we know from the former 2./502 Tigers in 3./503. I thought for a long time that 331 was one of the former 2./502 Tigers because of this bin. But actually it was just a turret swapping from an earlier Tiger of 2./502 to a later hull.

For 331 it was early Tiger 311. We see him here in the role of a spare part vehicle.



The turret goes to the hull of Tiger 331.





Renumbering was easy cause the "1" was just overpainted with a "3".




I think this need a small correction because the hull must not be the one from Tiger 331, could be also from Tiger 301. He is one of the three(I think) hulls with s-mine chargers(beside 332,331) and so possibly the original Tiger 331 had nothing to do with the later Tiger 331 because he could be a combination of the turret of 311 and the hull of 301.

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If the hull of ‘301’ was recycled, it looks as though the turret was too. This photo from Schneider + Kohler’s book ‘Tiger im Kampf III’ shows '332’ bogged down in a familiar scene.



Close examination reveals some interesting details. Firstly, ‘332’ appears not to be this turret’s original number, the second and third digits having been over-painted. Looks as though this was previously ‘301’. The over-painting is apparent in other photos of the turret’s left side and on the turret bin.





The cupola lid also shows signs of damage. One of the three locking handles is missing.


Viewed from the opposite side, the three handle mounts should look like this:


But the corresponding mount is missing, the lid is holed and the hasp is missing.



Presumably ‘332’ operated with this holed lid.

Chris.

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Hi Chris,

were was the hull of 301 used? I can´t recall that.

And for the turret he used obvisionly the original bin of 332.

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Hi Hartmut,

Q. where was the hull of 301 used? I can´t recall that

A. I do not know where the hull of the original 301 was used.

Three posts up this page, on 15.09.2014 you wrote
" ..... the hull must not be the one from Tiger 331, could be also from Tiger 301. He is one of the three (I think) hulls with s-mine chargers (beside 332,331) and so possibly the original Tiger 331 had nothing to do with the later Tiger 331 because he could be a combination of the turret of 311 and the hull of 301.

As you say, we see s-mine chargers associated with the following 3.Kp turret numbers only: 301, 331 and 332. The number 301 is seen on turrets with and without track hangers; a turret without hangers numbered 332 was previously numbered 301.

This suggests three scenarios: 332 comprised both the turret and hull of ex-301; or 301 turret with hangers sat on the original 301 hull; or 301 hanger-less turret, renumbered 332, sat on the original 332 hull and as you had suggested as a possibility 301 original hull hosted '331'.


Q. And for the turret he used obviously the original bin of 332

A. I think this photo shows that the ex-301 turret retained its original bin.



HTH,

Chris.

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I propose that Tiger 221 of 2/s.Pz.Abt. 502 became 321 of 3/s.Pz.Abt. 503.

221's rear left side mudguard was an anomaly. It was one of the old 2-part mudguards. These were not supposed to accompany the wide folding mudflaps, so it must have been a left-over part from the factory.

Here is 221, showing damage to the rear mudguard, which has opened a gap between its 2 parts, making them easy to see;



Now, I have a list of the features of these nine Tigers. Tiger 221 has the extended hull front and the S-mine supports, so it must have entered 3/s.Pz.Abt. 503 as 321 or 324; there are no other possibilities.

When we look at 321, we see that it has the same unusual feature, an obsolete section of mudguard at the rear left;



This mudguard is not perfectly straight, so it's possible that the damage in the earlier picture was corrected with a hammer.

The cross on the hull is precisely in the same position, the turret numbers are exactly the same position and size.

I propose that only the first digit was changed.

David

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I propose that Tiger 212 of 2/s.Pz.Abt. 502 became 311 of 3/s.Pz.Abt. 503.

We have good, clear pictures of 212, and knowing the features of each Tiger in this group of 9 special Tigers, I can say that it became either 311 or 312. There are no more possibilities unless it had a turret swap, which seems pointless.

Tiger 312 had an unusual feature; the support arm on the right side of the bin was high up, almost at the edge of the bin.



We can see in photos of 212 that its support arm was not like this. Therefore 212 becomes 311; which is compatible with your earlier conclusion that 211 did not become 311.

David

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5 years ago, Chris proved that this Tiger;



is actually 321. See;

http://www.tiif.de/thread.php?sid=&postid=2624#post2624

I have come to the same conclusion, for different reasons. There is, for example, a tiny impact mark on the mantlet next to the MG hole, and it appears in a later photo of 321.

Chris also said this;

gallery photos of all four show later hulls without the binocular driver’s scope, suggesting that there has been a change of turret/hull.

This I disagree with. The hull looks the same to me, and there is no change in its features. I believe that the workshop of s.Pz.Abt.503 actually closed up these holes and removed the vision device.

David

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Zitat:
Original von David Byrden
I propose that Tiger 212 of 2/s.Pz.Abt. 502 became 311 of 3/s.Pz.Abt. 503.

We have good, clear pictures of 212, and knowing the features of each Tiger in this group of 9 special Tigers, I can say that it became either 311 or 312. There are no more possibilities unless it had a turret swap, which seems pointless.

Tiger 312 had an unusual feature; the support arm on the right side of the bin was high up, almost at the edge of the bin.



We can see in photos of 212 that its support arm was not like this. Therefore 212 becomes 311; which is compatible with your earlier conclusion that 211 did not become 311.

David



Hi David,

I'm getting confused now. Higher up this page we established that 213 became 311 and (if I understand it correctly) that 212 became 312. What has changed for us to now to believe that 311 had been 212 rather than 213?

Cheers,

Chris.

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Yes, these are incompatible conclusions, therefore I suspect turret swapping. I must consider the turrets and hulls separately.

The mapping of "213" to "311" seems good to me. The turret bin has the hole, the whitewash on the mantlet has certain close matches, and the overall curvature of the side mudguards is the same. The cross is apparently in the same position - though I don't assume the crosses were not repainted.

Therefore I will ignore "213" and "311".

Now, I will seek a match for the hull of "212".

"212" has the antenna tube overhanging the hull;



So we can ignore all of the 3 company Tigers that have S-mine supports. This leaves;

322, 314, 313, 312

The hulls of these Tigers are very similar. The turrets, on the other hand, would immediately select "312" as the match, because the other three have the "thick" mantlet.

Leaving this aside, I looked for another distinct feature. And I found this; on the rear wall, beside the left exhaust, "212" had a small mark, perhaps an impact. The Tiger's tool layout required nothing at all to be there, and we can see on "323" and "324" that the whole area is indeed bare.

I found a mark on a 3rd company Tiger at exactly the same place. Here, I have scaled a photo of each Tiger so that the hull and exhaust overlay exactly. As I fade from one photo to the other one (displayed in red), you can see they both have a mark in precisely the same place;



This matching Tiger is in fact "312", the one that has a matching turret. There is no need for turret swapping to explain this.

So, what about the detail that caused me to reject "312" a few days ago? Let's look at it;

That little white line is on the side of the snow-covered "212" and I interpreted it as snow on the upper edge of the turret bin support. That made "212" different from "312" whose support is higher up.



But, suppose that this is snow on the lower edge of the support? There's snow on the bottom edge of the vision port in that photo! That would remove the difficulty and allow us to say that "212" becomes "312".

David

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Addendum;

Given your mapping of "200" to "313", the only remaining unknowns are
224, 223, 214
which should map to
322, 314, 323

Now, "224" had S-mine supports and bent-line side fenders. None of the above Tigers in the 3.company match that. So either there's an error in our mappings, or "323" was a hull swap.

David

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224 maps to 324? Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Zitat:
Original von David Byrden
Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt





Both have to be 502 Tigers but in 503 service. The photos are from spring or summer 1943. It was still winter when those Tigers were in 502 service.



I believe that both of these photos show "224".
Why?

The 2nd photo shows a turret with a special bin. This means that it comes from a group of only 9 Tigers; the 2nd company of s.Pz.Abt. 502.

Both of these Tigers have a further special feature; the new S-mine support is fixed at the rear corner, while the side skirts are the 'bent' kind. This reduces the pool of candidate Tigers in this battalion to maybe 4 or 5, I don't know for sure.

Both of them are lacking the rear roadwheel. Both of them have a turret number ending in "4". It's not clear in this photo, but you can see the lower corner of the "4". I believe this all implies that they are the same Tiger.



Now, looking closely at the digits "24" which end the turret number;



you will see that they are thinner than any of the "native" digits painted by the 503 artists at this time. This is simply not the style of s.Pz.Abt.503.

So I believe the Tiger, whoever may own it, still carries its "224" number from s.Pz.Abt.502.

And finally, when we look at this known photo of "224", we see that it does have the S-mine supports fixed on the rear hull.



David


David,

In the quoted post, you proved that the two photos posted by Hartmut showed ‘224’ in early 1943. They appear to match later photos of ‘324’, in particular the track split 4-1-1-1-1 on the bow and the step cut in to the third skirt. Like ‘224’, ‘324’ had S-mine supports and bent-line side fenders, so I suggest that there is no error in our mappings.




If so, then the three ex-502 Tigers yet to be matched are 214, 222 and 223 which should map to 314, 322 and 323.
What odds do you give on them all just changing their first digit?

Chris

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Now that I've seen some of the turret numbers in s.Pz.Abt. 503 painted in the style of 502, I'm reluctant to rely on my logic from that earlier post. Tiger 324 had solid white numbers at one time, but it also had numbers in this style, and I don't know the dates of the changes.

Tiger 224 has a subtle bend in the 2nd mudguard on the left side, which I also see in 324. And they match up in all visible build features. So I tentatively identify them, but I'd like more proof.

David

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We've been assuming that this unknown Tiger with an impact hole, is the same hull as "313";



But I can't find any similar discolourations on the hull wall. That alone isn't suspicious, just unhelpful.

I am also dubious about the cross. The distance from the cross to the hole seems different.

However, there is a real problem with the match. Look at the item under "A" here. It seems to be the antenna;



The item above "B" seems to be the end of the antenna storage tube, though it is mostly hidden by leaves.

And that implies that the antenna tube is almost level with the antenna, far behind the 10th mudguard bolt.

And that implies the hull has no S-mine equipment. Which means it cannot be the same hull from "313".

Could two shots hit almost exactly the same spot on a Tiger? What if the Russians believed it was a weak spot?

David

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OK, here is how I see this puzzle about 313.

>> "321 was seen with another hull had some features missing."

>> "321 get a second hull from another Tiger "

That's the original 321 hull, I am sure of it. The unit has closed the holes for the visor.



>> "why is the large gouge visible in photos of #313"

The dark marks on the photo of 313 are the shadows of storage brackets. There is no gouge.



This photo is not the 321/313 hull.

David

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Once again, thank you David. I agree that the dented hull does not match the one seen carrying 313/321 turrets.

I have yet to find a match for the bracket locations on the sponson side, particularly the one over the Balkenkreuz. They suggest that this is one of the Tigers we do not really know the right side of, such as '311'.

Chris.

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Zitat:
Original von Chris Brown
The book contains some new-to-me photos, but not as many as I had hoped. Photo reproduction quality is not good. The text is all in German so not an easy read for most Anglophones.



Chris;

Does the book tell us the reason and origin of the special turret bins?

This photo



suggests that the turrets never had any other bin attached. There is no sign of welding, such as we see in other Tigers that had a bin change.

I have a theory about what's going on, but maybe you know better?

David

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