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Hartmut von Holdt
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Situation from February to June 1943 Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

I open this new thread because i think it gives a better overview to that time frame. Starting with the new Tigers early production for 502.


I think these seven Tigers are the originals from the delivery of the 5. and the 20. February.

From 5.Febr.:










From 20.Febr.:










Interesting that all Tigers from 5.Febr. had s-mine charchers, but all Tigers from 20.Febr. not. That is pretty unexpected and the other way round would be more understandable. At least it helps to understand where wich hull was used later.
All three Tigers from 5.Febr. had a grey Africa size bin on the turret wich were welded on not by the factory but later in the field.
The four Tigers from 20.Febr. had allready the standard bin.Two of them had the spare tracks on the front plate in the later typical 502 style.

In the next steps i will try to give an overview on the turret/hull swap on the 9 Tigers from the 1.Kompanie from Febr. to June.

Any help and thoughts are welcome!

__________________
Hartmut von Holdt

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Hartmut von Holdt
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In early Febr.43 the Kompanie had five Tigers. Two Initials and the three new early Tigers.

These five Tigers were numbered from 1 to 5.

1


2


3


4


5



The four new Tigers from 20.Febr. were obvisionly not numbered.


In March the Kompanie had 2 losses.

One of them was Tiger #1



Apart from the hull and the turret of Tiger#5(former 111), there was never again a initial hull or turret(with PIII bin) seen. That and the fact that another Tiger was renumbered 3 is why i believe the second loss was initial Tiger#3.




So we have left
One initial Tiger
Two earlies with s-mines charchers and grey africa size bin
Four Tigers without s-mine charchers and standard bin

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Hartmut von Holdt

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The two losses in March43 were Tiger#1 and very probably Tiger#3.

We have now:
1 Initial #5(111)
2 Earlies from 5. Febr.#2 and #4
4 Earlies from 20.Febr.


This Tiger was obvisionly renumbered to #1. He was the later#01 and finally #134.



He had no s-mine charchers and the standard turret bin. So he was one of the four Earlies from 20.Febr.


Next one was the well known Tiger#2.



He was a combination of the hull of #5(111)



and the turret of #2



Renumbered #5, later #31 and finally #123 again with another hull.


Next one is the other well known Tiger #3



He was very probably the tank of Lt.Meyer before and so one more of the Tigers from 20.Febr.






Next is Tiger#4



He was a combination of a hull from a Tiger from 20.Febr.



and the turret of initial Tiger #5(111)



That Tiger was renumbered later to #32.



We have left now:
1 Tiger hull from 5.Febr. of #2
1 Tiger from 5.Febr. #4
1 Tiger from 20.
1 Tiger turret from 20.Febr.


This was the hull wich was combined with the turret of the Initial to #4.



He was a Tiger from the 20.Febr..The turret so far was not seen again.



Interesting should be what happend to the hull of Tiger #2 from 5.Febr..
Here we saw him again and maybe he allready gave away his turret with the number 2? It dos not look like he had his big sized grey bin in place. Even unsure if there is a bin?



He and Tiger #4 from 5.Febr. had the s-mines on the hull.

The only other Tiger from the early ones with s-mines on the hull is Tiger#13 so far.



He had no turret bin anymore.
The turret of #13 is one of the 5.Febr.(with africa size bin). He shows welding marks and the rest of a cut off bin holder.



The only Turret left from the 5.Febr. Tigers was #4 and so this is very probably the turret of #4 with possible the hull of Tiger #2. Or it is complete former #4.




For the last Tiger from 20.Febr. i would go with #22 wich became #131 later.







Any ideas?

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Chris Brown
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Excellent work Hartmut.

I've come back from some time away to be overwhelmed by information here. It is taking a while to go through, but I do intend to review each step.

To start, you say that "In March the Kompanie had 2 losses. One of them was Tiger #1"

I do not know whether you are familiar with these photos from the Archive of Modern Conflict but they show the recovery process and #1 post-recovery. The relatively undisturbed ground and the absence of tow cables/shackles suggest this is a runner.

If this is one Tigers blown-up on 31MAR43, it would have to have become bogged-down a second time.







Link:
http://www.warthroughthelens.org

Log in then search for R207

Chris.

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I never seen them. I thought that is a russian soldier on this photo and so i believed he was lost.



So this could mean that the turret #1, #01 and #134 was the original #1 possibly?

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Hartmut von Holdt

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Blondel/Pascal
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Hello

It is theTiger Nr. 1 of the sPzAbt. 502 in Russia spring, 1943.
The soldier is a SS. It is not a russian.
The color photo is more explicit.
The original Tiger ‘1’ was abandoned in a swamp pending the spring thaw.



Pascal Augenzwinkern

20.10.2012 15:15
Hartmut von Holdt
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Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
I never seen them. I thought that is a russian soldier on this photo and so i believed he was lost.



So this could mean that the turret #1, #01 and #134 was the original #1 possibly?



On the other hand it opens a logical solution that the original #1 was the later #13. He lost his turret bin and the lhs front mud flap and so he could be very well #13.

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
These pics should show all the same Tiger 13 wich was renumbered later 114.









So probably Tiger #2 or #4 was lost instead.

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Chris Brown
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RE: Situation from February to June 1943 Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Hartmut,

In answer to the first post in this thread, quoted below. My responses are in bold.

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
I open this new thread because i think it gives a better overview to that time frame. Starting with the new Tigers early production for 502.


I think these seven Tigers are the originals from the delivery of the 5. and the 20. February. Agreed
From 5.Febr.:










From 20.Febr.:



This pic from a 502 album looks like a 20Feb43 delivery too with no S-mines or track hangers. Given the ‘standard’ reinforced mantlet (unlike Lt. Meyer’s above) its probably another photo of the Tiger below.









Interesting that all Tigers from 5.Febr. had s-mine charchers, but all Tigers from 20.Febr. not. That is pretty unexpected and the other way round would be more understandable. Agreed. This is perplexing. From paint drips we can see that the dark patches on '1' were applied on top of the whitewash, but it is most unlikely that these photos are from the later winter period. At least it helps to understand where wich hull was used later.
All three Tigers from 5.Febr. had a grey Africa size bin on the turret wich were welded on not by the factory but later in the field.
The four Tigers from 20.Febr. had allready the standard bin.Two of them had the spare tracks on the front plate in the later typical 502 style.

In the next steps i will try to give an overview on the turret/hull swap on the 9 Tigers from the 1.Kompanie from Febr. to June.

Any help and thoughts are welcome!

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Responses in bold

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
In early Febr.43 the Kompanie had five Tigers. Two Initials and the three new early Tigers. Agreed
These five Tigers were numbered from 1 to 5. Agreed

1


2


3


4


5



The four new Tigers from 20.Febr. were obvisionly not numbered.


In March the Kompanie had 2 losses.

One of them was Tiger #1 Not necessarily – already discussed



Apart from the hull and the turret of Tiger#5(former 111), there was never again a initial hull or turret(with PIII bin) seen. That and the fact that another Tiger was renumbered 3 is why i believe the second loss was initial Tiger#3. Agreed




So we have left
One initial Tiger
Two earlies with s-mines charchers and grey africa size bin
Four Tigers without s-mine charchers and standard bin. Agreed

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Responses in bold.

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
The two losses in March43 were Tiger#1 Possibly and very probably Tiger#3 Agreed .

We have now:
1 Initial #5(111)
2 Earlies from 5. Febr.#2 and #4 Unlikely
4 Earlies from 20.Febr.


This Tiger was obvisionly renumbered to #1. He was the later#01 and finally #134.



He had no s-mine charchers and the standard turret bin. So he was one of the four Earlies from 20.Febr. Agreed


Next one was the well known Tiger#2.



He was a combination of the hull of #5(111)



and the turret of #2 Agreed



Renumbered #5, later #31 and finally #123 again with another hull. Agreed

Next one is the other well known Tiger #3



He was very probably the tank of Lt.Meyer before and so one more of the Tigers from 20.Febr.
Meyer’s turret has dark kill rings added on the barrel, and is seen on hull/s with and without track on the bow. As both seem to have the aircraft mark on the Kugelblende the track stowage may have been lost, although no evidence of former brackets are obvious. Could there be more than one hull involved?






Next is Tiger#4



He was a combination of a hull from a Tiger from 20.Febr.



and the turret of initial Tiger #5(111) Probably



That Tiger was renumbered later to #32.



We have left now:
1 Tiger hull from 5.Febr. of #2
1 Tiger from 5.Febr. #4
1 Tiger from 20.
1 Tiger turret from 20.Febr.


This was the hull wich was combined with the turret of the Initial to #4. Agreed



He was a Tiger from the 20.Febr..The turret so far was not seen again.



Interesting should be what happend to the hull of Tiger #2 from 5.Febr..
Here we saw him again and maybe he allready gave away his turret with the number 2? It dos not look like he had his big sized grey bin in place. Even unsure if there is a bin?



He and Tiger #4 from 5.Febr. had the s-mines on the hull. #1 had them too

The only other Tiger from the early ones with s-mines on the hull is Tiger#13 so far. Agreed



He had no turret bin anymore.
The turret of #13 is one of the 5.Febr.(with africa size bin). He shows welding marks and the rest of a cut off bin holder. Agreed



The only Turret left from the 5.Febr. Tigers was #4 or 1 and so this is very probably the turret of #4 or 1 with possible the hull of Tiger #2. Or it is complete former #4 or 1.




For the last Tiger from 20.Febr. i would go with #22 wich became #131 later. Agreed







Any ideas?


Great work Hartmut, if a little difficult to get one's head around.

Chris

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Responses in bold as usual.

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt

On the other hand it opens a logical solution that the original #1 was the later #13. He lost his turret bin and the lhs front mud flap and so he could be very well #13. Agreed

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
These pics should show all the same Tiger 13 wich was renumbered later 114. Agreed









So probably Tiger #2 or #4 was lost instead.Agreed


Where does this probable replacement #2 fit in the great scheme of things?



Chris.

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Hartmut von Holdt
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Zitat:
Original von Chris Brown


Where does this probable replacement #2 fit in the great scheme of things?



Chris.


As the logical Consequence that could be the hull of the original Tiger #2 with the turret of a Tiger from 20.Febr.
He was a combination of a hull from 5.Febr. with s-mine launcher and a turret from 20 Febr. with the standard turret bin.



If we look on the missing rhs smoke launcher on this last 20 Febr. turret(from my asummtion) it opens some space for speculation.










You Chris mentioned in a earlier thread that on the pic in the wood there could be a Tiger with track hangers in the background. I am not sure but probably you are right.
I think this Tiger here could be the last piece to complete the puzzle. I have no problem with the fact that he shows no turret number(its 502) but i still believe that he could be #2. If the pic in the wood was made indeed in summer 43, then it would leave the result that Tiger #1 and Tiger #2 from 5.Febr. made it to the summer but Tiger #4 was lost in March.

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Jerry Mumot
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Hey guys, I just finished translating 18. Army report about fighting in early 1943, and i hate to say it, but it kinda flips the results of your excellent investigation around. Here is the copy of the relevant parts:


"18. Army, 2 April 1943
Report about anti-tank defense during battles from 12 January to 31 March 1943.

A.Tanks
The only tank unit available (1./s.Pz.Abt.502) was engaged in 3 different sectors:
1.) from 12 January to 5 February - south of the Ladoga lake (around and to the west of Ssinjawino)
2.) from 12 to 17 February - at Mischkino, Tschernyschewo and Porkusi
3.) from 19 to 31 March - south of Krassnyj Bor (the company is still in combat)
1.)
Highest number of operation tanks available in the single day: - 6 VI, 15 III
The number of knocked out enemy tanks - 55
Personnel losses (killed, wounded or missing) - 40 men (3 officers)
Total tank losses - 6 VI 12 III
Details - at 12 January concentrated company counterattack in cooperation with the Grenadier-Regiment. Subsequently several local counterstrikes and security tasks assigned to platoons, or even to the single tanks. Difficult terrain.
2.)
Highest number of operation tanks available in the single day: - 3 VI, 3 III
The number of knocked out enemy tanks - 57
Personnel losses (killed, wounded or missing) - 6
Total tank losses - 3 VI 1 III
Details - Mission to attack and destroy recognized enemy tank formation (31 tanks knocked out), subsequent counterattacks.
3.)
Highest number of operation tanks available in the single day: - 4 VI, 3 III
The number of knocked out enemy tanks - 48
Personnel losses (killed, wounded or missing) - 3
Total tank losses - none
Details - Primary task was to attack and destroy enemy tanks advancing along the main road. Missions to support our own infantry fighting in the forests could not have been accomplished, because of the soft ground and difficulty in using the armament. Assignment to defend static defense positions (after sufficient reconnaissance) with good effects."





I assume delivery numbers from Schneider (3 on 5 February and 4 on 20 February) are all correct but i ignore his data on tank losses. So lets try to compile all that:

1942 - 9 Tigers delivered, 1 Tiger lost, 8 Tigers still remaining
12 January-5 February 1943 - 6 Tigers lost. 2 Tigers remaining
5 February - 3 Tigers issued, they have 5 now
12-17 February - 3 Tigers lost - they're down to 2 Tigers again
20 February - 4 Tigers issued, they should have had 6 by now
19-31 March - in combat S of Krassnyj Bor but no total losses at all




Here is also a good time to include numbers from the Panzerlagen. All numbers mean total strength. I did not include operational tanks numbers because they're not important at the moment:

"26 February - 7 Tigers left, also 4 Pz.III (1x 7.5, 3x lang)
9 March - 6 Tigers 4 Pz.III left (the number of Pz.III will remain unchanged until June)
19 March - 6 Tigers
10 April - 6 Tigers
30 April - 7 Tigers
10 May - 7 Tigers
20 May - 7 Tigers
31 May - 7 Tigers
10 June - 14 Tigers
20 June - 14 Tigers and 4 Pz.III (with 31 Tigers in delivery incl. 3 Pz.Bef.)"




We have an obvious difference of 1 Tiger between 18. Army report and the Panzerlagen. Also, 1 Tiger disappear from the strength reports for a few weeks. I assume we can rule out any idea of additional Tiger issued as replacement in April. So it seems like all these reports are correct except for 2 "details":
- 2 Tigers and not 3 were lost on 12-17 February
- 1 Tiger was temporarily written off between early March and late April. Maybe it was Tiger 1 stuck in the lake?

So here is the unit history after including these changes, and i believe its the most likely to be correct :
1942 - 9 Tigers delivered, 1 Tiger lost, 8 Tigers still remaining
12 January-5 February 1943 - 6 Tigers lost. 2 Tigers remaining
5 February - 3 Tigers issued, they have 5 now
12-17 February - 2 Tigers lost - they're down to 3 Tigers
20 February - 4 Tigers issued, they have 7 now
late February-early March - 1 Tiger temporarily written off, they're down to 6 Tigers
19-31 March - in combat S of Krassnyj Bor, no losses
mid/late April - 1 Tiger taken back on strength, the total number is 7 again

..to be continued

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Jerry Mumot
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Ok so lets stop now for a second and assume these informations are right and not wrong as always. Here are my thoughts:


Hartmut

You have 3 Tiger produced later issued as replacements on 5 February, and 4 Tigers produced earlier but issued later, on 20th.
I propose the simpler solution, Tigers built first were issued on 5 February and Tigers built later were issued on 20th.

You realize that Tigers build later (and issued first according to you) all survived for a long time. They were all actually later renumbered twice.
I believe they were issued later, on 20 February, and I agree with the rest. There were no total losses at all between 20 February and like July 1943.

You complain that Tigers build early (and issued later) had no numbers.
I believe that 3 Tigers build first were issued on 5 February, and up to 2 of them were lost within 2 weeks. They were gone so quickly they didnt have time to put numbers on them.

You have Tiger of Leutnant Meyer as delivered on 20 February.
But according to Schneider, this officer became known after his victories in mid-February. He has Leutnant Meyer in action on 11 and 17 February destroying many KV-1 and other tanks. The photos of his tank were supposed to show the exactly the one vehicle he was using. I propose Meyer's tank was delivered on 5 February (this is in line with previous points).

Hope it helps, regards

Dieser Beitrag wurde schon 1 mal editiert, zum letzten mal von Jerry Mumot am 27.10.2012 06:57.

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Hartmut von Holdt
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Thank you very much Jerry

That is huge of information and it will take me some time to work with it.

Just a small point to think about in this moment:

The three Tigers #1, #2 and #4 had the s-mine charchers and so you/we aspect them as the later produced tanks.
But on the other hand they all three had the older oversized Africa bin in grey on the turrets. The bins were welded on to the turrets later in field by the I-Kompanie probably.



The other four Tigers without s-mine charchers had allready the later standard bin on the turret completed by factory.

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David Byrden
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Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
I think these seven Tigers are the originals from the delivery of the 5. and the 20. February.

From 5.Febr.:









A couple of notes;

Tiger 1 has a 5-part cleaning rod; the cable holders are almost exactly the same space apart as 2 road wheels.

Tiger 4 has a 6-part cleaning rod. The cable holders are significantly less than 2 wheels apart.

Tiger 2 we cannot see.

When you talk about Tigers not having S-mine launchers, please remember that the crew could remove them, or never apply them, if they were not needed.


Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
The turret of #13 is one of the 5.Febr.(with africa size bin). He shows welding marks and the rest of a cut off bin holder.



The only Turret left from the 5.Febr. Tigers was #4 and so this is very probably the turret of #4 with possible the hull of Tiger #2. Or it is complete former #4.


This hull is not from #4 because it has a 5-part gun cleaning rod. Because this is an old feature, it must be #1 or #2.

David

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Chris Brown
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Hi Jerry,

whilst we're waiting for Hartmut's response, if we can locate the places mentioned for these photos of '1', it may help establish a timescale.

I struggle to read this German script. Does anyone recognise the place names and can we associate any of them with the combat phases the 18.Army report identifies?
1.) 12 January to 5 February - south of the Ladoga lake (around and to the west of Ssinjawino)
2.) 12 to 17 February - at Mischkino, Tschernyschewo and Porkusi
3.) 19 to 31 March - south of Krassnyj Bor




Chris

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Zitat:
Original von Chris Brown
Hi Jerry,

whilst we're waiting for Hartmut's response, if we can locate the places mentioned for these photos of '1', it may help establish a timescale.

Chris


Actually there is not that much to response. First i read of three losses but on the end there were only two as we thought allready. The two Tigers were lost in Febr. not in March.

Jerry believe that the Tigers without the s-mine charchers were from 5.Febr.. I believe #1,#2 and#4 came on 5.Febr.

Meyer could have used any Tiger in mid Febr. and if there were two losses it could be very well that he have to change his ride several times. We know there was some kind of a turret/hull swap orgie and so probably lot comander swapping too in that time frame.
So far i even don´t know who was Meyer....how he looks.



I allways try to see it in a logical way like the military would do.
We had a time around February 43 when most of the first batch of initial Tigers were lost and 502 changed the numbering style to a simple 1 to 5. 1 to 5 because that was the number of Tigers they had on hand after they recieved 3 new Tigers on 5.Febr..
If the Tigers #1, #2 and #4 came later on 20 Febr. and logicaly the renumbering was started later on the end of Febr., then they would had a total of 7 Tigers on hand and the numbering system would change from 1 to 7 instead. But we never saw a Tiger #6 or #7.
From my view by comparing all the photos we have of that time frame it seems clear that none of the 4 Tigers without s-mine charchers and standard turret bin was lost from Febr. to July 43. We find them all later renumbered again. If #1, #2 and #4 came on 20 Febr., that would mean none of them were lost because the last losses 502 had on 17 Febr. We should find all three Tigers later renumbered then. I find only two of them with #1/13/114 and #2/?/?.
If Jerry is right that the Tigers with standard bin/no s-mines were from 5.Febr., then at least one of them had to be a loss.

Another theme is why should the Tiger #2(hull 111/turret 2) later renumbered to #5 ? If for example a Tiger #5 was lost(but we had no loss after Febr.), than it would be nonsense to renumber Tiger#2 to #5. Allways follow the logic to replace the tank from the first row but not from the last.
Conclusion is that the Tiger with the hull from 111 and the turret from 2 was never Tiger#2 in the list, but he was from beginning #5.

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Hartmut von Holdt

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