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David Byrden
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I think we can benefit from knowing photo locations, because they can imply that a certain Tiger was in a certain event, and contribute to vehicle identification.

I want to post my logic here when I locate a 504 photo. Feel free to question me.

We have about 30 photos of this abandoned Tiger, number 121, so it should be findable. A soldier has helpfully written "Bizerte - Tunis" on the front, which suggested the roads that I should search;



Travelling south on the main Bizerte-Tunis road (using Google Earth), I saw a ridge matching the one behind the Tiger, and one particular stretch of road was correctly aligned to it. We are halfway from Tunis to Protville;



To narrow down the position, I used a triangular hill (marked here) which had to appear through a gap;



The three small hills visible off to the side of the road, acted as confirmation of the place. Not only did I find the correct number of small hills, but their relative spacing was correct (the peaks are marked here because Google's 3D model isn't perfect. The peaks are located from the satellite imagery);



Finally, to get a more exact fix, I used a farmhouse that's visible on the other side of the road. Its perspective shape is correct only when seen from a short stretch of the road;



So, I conclude that Tiger 121 was left within a few meters of this spot. Most of the road is now rebuilt, but this stretch seems to have its old surface. A metal detector might find something.



David

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Chris Brown
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Great work David, much appreciated.

Chris.

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David Byrden
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About the two Tigers that drove into a ditch.

This one was more difficult than I expected. The ravine is now full of trees, and somebody has built a house in it. But I am sure there is no other possible location. The Germans and Allies both name the nearest towns, and the roads have only so many corners.

It's at 43°58'41"N 12°34'52"E



I have a page for the two Tigers in a ravine.

David

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Zitat:
Original von Federico Peyrani
it seems to me that the place is from the first "Einsatz" of the unit, north of Grosseto



I have been trying to place these images north of Grosseto, and I simply cannot. It looks good at first, but it doesn't stand up to close examination.



Did you ever find the location?

And has anybody a large copy of this photo?



David

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Chris Brown
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Courtesy of the Archive of Modern Conflict. Hope this has the detail you require.



Chris.

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David Byrden
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Beautiful! Thank you, Chris.

David

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These two Tigers are not near Grosseto.



They are among the 22 Tigers that broke down and were abandoned in the last few days of June 1944, on the retreat to Pontedera.



Tiger "111" can be located to within a few meters using the parallax of two hills. However somebody has built a house in just the wrong place, so this modern photo is taken from ahead of the Tiger.



Looking behind Tiger "111" we find the same farmhouse. Thank you, Chris!



The other Tiger can't be located so precisely. But there is no doubt that the photos all show the same place.

David

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Federico Peyrani
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Wonderful find David!

I'll give a look at the history of the unit. Maybe I'll find something else, but in this period of time (end July-beginning of August 1944) info are scarce... they were moving in a hurry!

Regards
Federico

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David Byrden
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Now I have a page for Two Tigers abandoned near Saline.



David

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I have found the spot where "211" was abandoned. It is at
37°14'2.86"N 14°34'43.53"E which is 5km east of Caltagirone.

All of the following photos match up to the area, confirming that they show the same Tiger:





The farmhouse still exists:



What do we know about the circumstances of this Tiger? I don't see any penetrations.

David

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Federico Peyrani
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Hi David!

You're great!
The place is fully consistent with the retreat path of HG and 2./504!

This should be the original mount of Lt. Herbert Heim, commander of 2./504 after the wounding of Hptm. Hummel.

Heim was in action at Ponte Dirillo in the first day of combat (July 11th), took command of the unit after Hummels wounding, and the day after went west along Route 115 with most of the Tigers, in direction of Vittoria. He was stopped by US Paratroopers at Biazzo Ridge, and due to the absence of Infantry from HG, he could not pierce the US defences. Collaboration with HG infantry was very bad in those days.

After receiving the order for the reply from Biazzo Ridge, I am quite sure all the remaining Tigers (less the 6 with KG Goldschmidt) passed through Acate and Santo Pietro (Biscari Airfield for the US), went north to Niscemi and then to Caltagirone. This was the last open escape route.

This Tiger looks like it was self destroyed by the crew for some reasons. You can see it because the turret bin was hit and deformed by the motor cover. This happened when the crew set off the demolition charge in the engine compartment.

It looks like its belly was in contact with the roadside "wall" (don't know the exact name). This could be the cause of his demise.
The HG abandoned the Portalkran in the first or second day of fight, and after that every broken transmission caused teh loss of the Tiger for 2./504. But this doesn't look the case, in the hurry of the retreat, every immobilised Tiger was slef destroyed.

Regards
Federico

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I now have an event for the destruction of Tiger 211.

David

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I have a location for this Tiger, said to be at Ponte Dirillo:



It is at 37° 0'0.89"N 14°25'21.16"E

In other words, it is at the corner where the HG division's Eastern Battle Group turned to the right, after coming from Acate, to head for Ponte Dirillo. They were attacked from behind while they occupied the ridge, and so the Tiger is facing the attacking forces.

David

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Federico Peyrani
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Hi David,

Ponte Dirillo is at 37° 1'23.40"N 14°24'28.66"E
The position you choose is 670 mt far from Case Biazzo, and 2700 mt far from Ponte Dirillo. To me it looks too far from the bridge.
That site would have been more likely called "Biazzo Ridge" or "Stazione di Acate" (370 mt to the South East).

As far as I know, the Tigers were all employed at Ponte Dirillo on the 11th, and then recalled in the night (minus the 6 of KG Goldschmidt) because they had the news that Vittoria was fallen. Then they played "hide and seek" with the paratroopers at Biazzo Ridge all day long (I think it was the 12th of July) and in the evening they replied to Caltagirone.

This same day KG Goldschmidt lost all his 6 Tigers and 13 men came back on foot in 3-4 days to the Piana di Catania - Gerbini area.

Regards

Federico
[Corrected Ponte Dirillo position]

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Yes, I am aware that my chosen position is a long way from Ponte Dirillo. And the match with the photos is not absolutely clear.

However, after a thorough search of the main roads around Ponte Dirillo, I conclude that no other place matches the photos so well as this place.

Compare the hills in this photo:


Also, the stone wall in the photo corresponds to an old wall in the modern road;



The road is long and straight in both cases. The sunlight comes from a valid direction.

David

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Federico Peyrani
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Looks like you're right again...

Regards
Federico

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Zitat:
Original von Federico Peyrani
The position you choose is 670 mt far from Case Biazzo, and 2700 mt far from Ponte Dirillo. To me it looks too far from the bridge.



According to "Jump Commander: In Combat with the 82nd Airborne in World War II", the fighting at Biazzo Ridge was over by the 13th July, and "They knocked out a couple of these big German tanks with bazookas".
It's not surprising to find this Tiger close to the ridge, with a bazooka hole in it.

David

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Federico Peyrani
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Hi David,

can you see a bazooka hole on this Tiger?
I cant...

Regards
Federico

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David Byrden
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Zitat:
Original von Federico Peyrani
Hi David,

can you see a bazooka hole on this Tiger?
I cant...

Regards
Federico


You need a large copy of the photo:



This is a typical bazooka hole.

I have mapped the location of the Tiger knocked out at Biazzo Ridge

David

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This photo of the Biazzo Ridge Tiger is not in the gallery;



David

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Thanks for the nudge, gallery updated with this photo from Greg's collection which can be found in my book 'Tiger I On The Battlefield'.

Chris.

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A larger copy of this photo would be nice to have:



Because I could compare it to this 1943 photo of the "Y" junction south of Niscemi;



and I could demonstrate that the same tree appears in both photos;



The horizon in the Tiger photo matches that in Google Street View, but with all the new foliage, and that railway bridge, it's not entirely convincing.



So I need one more piece of evidence to place the Tiger here.

Let's take the other photo that we discussed earlier, which is looking down the same road from the north;



and let's zooooooom right into it. What do we see but a Tiger!



What, you say, that doesn't look like the Tiger sitting in the middle of the road! And you're correct.

It is the Tiger pushed off the road, with its turret gone, and its engine hatch open.



So we have two Tigers from the Western Battle Group on the same Niscemi road.

Federico, can you help? The book "Tigers in Combat 1" and this American account of the battles do not match up exactly. Do you know where the fighting occurred on each day?

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Thanks to Chris, I can show you that the location is correct;



These trees, seen in both photos, are obviously the same ones.



Therefore this Tiger was left on the Niscemi road, north of the "Y" junction. In fact, I think it's visible in the overview photo, beside the arrowhead.

I now have a page for the battle of the Y junction.

David

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Federico Peyrani
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Zitat:
Original von David Byrden
A larger copy of this photo would be nice to have:



Because I could compare it to this 1943 photo of the "Y" junction south of Niscemi;



and I could demonstrate that the same tree appears in both photos;



The horizon in the Tiger photo matches that in Google Street View, but with all the new foliage, and that railway bridge, it's not entirely convincing.



So I need one more piece of evidence to place the Tiger here.

Let's take the other photo that we discussed earlier, which is looking down the same road from the north;



and let's zooooooom right into it. What do we see but a Tiger!



What, you say, that doesn't look like the Tiger sitting in the middle of the road! And you're correct.

It is the Tiger pushed off the road, with its turret gone, and its engine hatch open.



So we have two Tigers from the Western Battle Group on the same Niscemi road.

Federico, can you help? The book "Tigers in Combat 1" and this American account of the battles do not match up exactly. Do you know where the fighting occurred on each day?


Hi David,

just a quick note as I am leaving for the holydays tomorrow. As far as I know, all this happened in the same day, the 12th of July 1943. The 5-6 Tigers that arrived in the Y Junction from South East, on Highway 115, were part of KG Goldschmidt, and should have joined their forces with the rest of HG, expected to come down from Niscemi. This never happened as the HG retreated to the Catania Plain, some 50 Km North. KG Goldschmidt, part of HG's KG Weber, was not in radio contact with the Division, and attacked at dawn. At the road junction they should have stopped waiting, but the first Tiger turned right (North) and the others followed on, exposing their left flank to a counterattack of 753rd Tank Battalion's Shermans. It is probable that the first Tiger had some radio problems as it could not be contacted. After dealing with the Shermans and after some hard moments cursing to the 'presumed' HG soldiers shooting at them, Goldschmidt understood that they were enemies, and decided to retreat along Route 115 in direction of Acate. He says that it was hard to go back, because the road was narrow (two Tigers could not stay there side by side), and some were immobilised, but two of them (Glodschmidt's and Günther's) could retreat to Case Iacono, where they captured an improvised field hospital. But this is another story.

Please excuse me David, but I would keep some suspence...
I would like to publish a book on 504 in English in the next years.
If you want I can send you some German Reports, but I prefer they remain not published until the book will be made...

Regards

Federico

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This Tiger is in the gallery under "Pisano", but I put it on the Via Armando Diaz which isn't near any town called Pisano.



It's difficult to get a good view from the road, with all the new trees and houses; but the simulated terrain on Google Earth shows the features.



The approximate place is 37°39'40.7"N 15° 6'7.5"E

Tiger on the Via Armando Diaz

David

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Great work once again David.

Restayn gives this as one of three Tigers scuttled in the Pisano "sector". As you say there appears to be no town of Pisano in Sicily. But, 110m Southeast of the spot you have identified is the junction of the Via Armando Diaz with the Via Fortino Pisano. So maybe the Pisano reference is to the road name rather than a place name?

Here are a couple of posts from Zimmerit Forum suggesting locations for this Tiger and another in the locality.






Link:
http://zimmerit.freeforumzone.com/d/9424...cussione.aspx/3

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Thank you, Chris. I'm afraid that they have the wrong area for the 3.company Tiger. It was in the garden of house number 6, two hundred meters behind the 2.company tank.

See: Tigers on Via Armando Diaz

David

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Federico Peyrani
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Hi to all!

Well, you shouldn't think that in Google Maps/Earth and StreetView there is all the placenames database of Italy.

As I said somwhere else, the best placename database for Italy is in this website: Geoportale Nazionale.

This works like GoogleMaps, but you can overlay the military 1:25.000 maps that are the most detailed. You should read italian, and if intersted ask me and I'll make a quick guide in English.

I say that because if you look here in GoogleStreeetView Link you can find that some 20 meters before where the Tiger was there is the Placename Pisano.

Also, the picture of Lorenzo bovi is old, a friend of him discovered the place before July 2015, as in my book there is the new already reported.

The second Tiger is said to be 100 yards from the first (British source), but I did not find the place. Maybe David will be able?

Best Regards

Federico

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The spot where this Tiger sat is now the front garden of the B&B Ametista, Via Armando Diaz 6. The owner, Mrs. Anna will be happy to accommodate you.

David

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30.08.2016 23:36 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Federico Peyrani
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Dabei seit: 21.07.2009
Beiträge: 144

3.Kp Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Hi David,

please note that 3./504 was never in Sicily, due to the fact that it became a company of Panzer-Regiment Grossdeutschland (I have to check it out, but i saw that on this website in GD's page).
In fact some of GD Tigers had the same romboid with number three, at least during their transport to the front.

Only some of 3.Kp's Tigers went to Sicily, to add strenght to the 2./504, which in fact ended with 17 tanks. But they were supernumerary tanks part of the Company.

from my website:
20/03/1943: In GERMANY the constitution of the 3. Kompanie was abandoned.

22/06/1943: The 3./504, still in GERMANY, became the 11./Panzer-Regiment Großdeutschland passing to Panzer-Division Großdeutschland.

My guess is that in between some Tigers (5, 6?) went to Sicily.

Regards
Federico

30.08.2016 23:42 Federico Peyrani ist offline Email an Federico Peyrani senden Homepage von Federico Peyrani Beiträge von Federico Peyrani suchen Nehmen Sie Federico Peyrani in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
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Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
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Thank you Federico. I fixed the captions.

David

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30.08.2016 23:52 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Federico Peyrani
Moderator


Dabei seit: 21.07.2009
Beiträge: 144

Geoportale Nazionale Quick Manual Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Hi to all!

I have been kindly requested by David Byrden how does it work the viewer of the Italian official website Geoportale Nazionale, and I think that the right place to explain how does it work is here.

I kindly remember all of you that many other nations have similar websites, much more complete with geolocations than Google's wonderful systems. But much more "user unfriendly" and in the original language of the nation.

With it, you can acces a much wider database of geolocations than GoogleEarth of Google Maps.

The inital page, Geoportale Nazionale, is quite simple, like GoogleMaps.
You have a time barrel above, very useful as there are the air pictures of all Italy.
In the year 1988 there are b/w pictures, but many things loooked like during the war.

The most useful feature of the website is anyway the overlay of the Military maps at 1:25.000.
To get to them you have to look on the right, where is the Strumenti (Tools) Window.
There you have to click on the Servizi (Services) voice of the menu, choosing the WMS voice.
This will open a new window "Aggiungi servizio WMS" (Add WMS Service) where you'll have to click on the voice Ente (Organization).
The only voice there, the one to activate, is "wms.pcminambiente.it".
In the line below "Servizio" (Service) you'll have to choose the voice "Cartografia di base - IGM 25.000".
When done click on the button "Visualizza Layer".
This will open the window "Selezione Layer" (Layer Selection).
I usually flag both options with the button "Seleziona tutti".
The click the button "Aggiungi Layer" (Add Layer). This will take some time as the system is very slow.

I suggest you to zoom in before making the above operations.

On the right there is the Window "Gestione Servizi" (Service Management), where you can hide the layers, or set the transparency with the bar above.

Here is all!
Good searches!

Federico
Ps: If I was unclear, please ask me and I'll try to explain the thing in a better way.

02.09.2016 10:04 Federico Peyrani ist offline Email an Federico Peyrani senden Homepage von Federico Peyrani Beiträge von Federico Peyrani suchen Nehmen Sie Federico Peyrani in Ihre Freundesliste auf
SIMON FULLER


Dabei seit: 21.02.2017
Beiträge: 4

Federico. Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Hi Federico.

Do you have any info on when your latest book, that you mentioned on this site, will be available.

Regards, Simon.

22.02.2017 17:42 SIMON FULLER ist offline Email an SIMON FULLER senden Beiträge von SIMON FULLER suchen Nehmen Sie SIMON FULLER in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
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Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
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Well, I have some exciting news - exciting to me at least.

Google have published Street Views for a limited set of roads in Tunisia.




So, for example, this is exactly where Tiger 121 was abandoned or knocked out.

David

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21.08.2017 02:24 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
David Byrden
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Dabei seit: 27.09.2009
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These two Tigers are at 42°57'59.18"N 10°56'21.39"E

David

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04.01.2018 00:29 David Byrden ist offline Email an David Byrden senden Homepage von David Byrden Beiträge von David Byrden suchen Nehmen Sie David Byrden in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Chris Brown
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Dabei seit: 16.03.2008
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Thanks for the info David. That location just north of Potassa puts them near the site of '222'.

Chris

04.01.2018 01:05 Chris Brown ist offline Email an Chris Brown senden Beiträge von Chris Brown suchen Nehmen Sie Chris Brown in Ihre Freundesliste auf
Federico Peyrani
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Dabei seit: 21.07.2009
Beiträge: 144

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Well, David, you made another great discovery!

Thank you very much for sharing!

Federico

24.01.2018 09:13 Federico Peyrani ist offline Email an Federico Peyrani senden Homepage von Federico Peyrani Beiträge von Federico Peyrani suchen Nehmen Sie Federico Peyrani in Ihre Freundesliste auf
 
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