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John Winwood
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From http://stonebooks.com/archives/090215.shtml quoting Jentz:

"The number of operational Tigers available for action in Tunisia was reported as 6 on 10 March, 7 on 15 March, 9 on 19 March, 9 on 24 March, 8 on 30 March, 17 on 4 April, 13 on 5 April, 6 on 13 April, 8 on 15 April, 10 on 18 April, 4 on 1 May, 4 on 3 May, and 1 in the last report on 4 May.

On 13 April 1943, schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 reported that it still had eight Tigers (tactical numbers 01, 02, 712, 721, 722, 724, 731, 732) and seven Pz.Kpfw.III(75) (tactical numbers 713, 715, 723, 725, 733, 734) plus one Tiger (tactical number 111) and four Pz.Kpfw.III(5lg) (tactical numbers 01, 05, 113, 114) attached from the 1.Kompanie/schwere Panzer-Abteilung 504. In the interim, all of the Tigers and Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.N from the schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 had been renumbered and consolidated into the 1.Kompanie.

On 18 April 1943, the 1.Kompanie/schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 was attached to Kampfgruppe Ickens along with elements of Panzer-Regiment 5 and Panzer-Regiment 8. On 19 April, the 1.Kompanie/schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 reported their operational strength as five Tigers (tactical numbers 111, 712, 724, 731, 732), six Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.N (tactical numbers 713, 723, 725, 733, 734, 735), and three Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.M (tactical numbers 01, 113, 114)."

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James Burns
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Ausf Ms using numbers 113 and 114? The original ones that we have photos of were Ausf Ns. Guess they re-used the numbers or could this be an error?

Same for 01, used for both a living Tiger and PZIII.

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John Winwood
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Zitat:
Original von James Burns
Ausf Ms using numbers 113 and 114? The original ones that we have photos of were Ausf Ns. Guess they re-used the numbers or could this be an error?

Same for 01, used for both a living Tiger and PZIII.


I'm guessing the panzers just kept their sPzAbt 504 numbers despite conflicts. I suppose 501's Tiger 01 could have ended up parked alongside 504's Pz III 01.

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Reading comprehension! I missed that these were 504s panzers!

I was browsing your site yesterday and noticed an article that mentioned Tiger 231 was knocked out with another unknown Tiger by British 6pdrs. I have seen pictures of both tanks, the second only in pieces though. Anyhow it also mentioned that they took out 8 PZIII Ausf Ns. Any idea which ones these were?

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John Winwood
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Zitat:
Original von James Burns
Reading comprehension! I missed that these were 504s panzers!

I was browsing your site yesterday and noticed an article that mentioned Tiger 231 was knocked out with another unknown Tiger by British 6pdrs. I have seen pictures of both tanks, the second only in pieces though. Anyhow it also mentioned that they took out 8 PZIII Ausf Ns. Any idea which ones these were?


If I recall correctly from Jentz, the second Tiger damaged in the same battle as 231 by 6 pdrs was towed back to German lines.

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My computer with all the photos crashed. There are photos of 2 British chaps near 231 when they blew it up. There are also photos of the same 2 fellows standing over the wreckage of another tiger as evidenced from the position of the crouching tigers. Both 231 and the unknown Tiger had their crouching tigers in slightly different positions on the glacis.

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David Byrden
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Zitat:
Original von John Winwood
On 13 April 1943, schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 reported that it still had eight Tigers (tactical numbers 01, 02, 712, 721, 722, 724, 731, 732) and seven Pz.Kpfw.III(75) (tactical numbers 713, 715, 723, 725, 733, 734)



The battalion should have had 11 of its original Tigers after the Beja mission. In the above report, they are down to 8.

I suggest that the missing 3 tigers would be numbered like this;




Any thoughts?

David

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John Winwood
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Zitat:
Original von David Byrden
Zitat:
Original von John Winwood
On 13 April 1943, schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 reported that it still had eight Tigers (tactical numbers 01, 02, 712, 721, 722, 724, 731, 732) and seven Pz.Kpfw.III(75) (tactical numbers 713, 715, 723, 725, 733, 734)



The battalion should have had 11 of its original Tigers after the Beja mission. In the above report, they are down to 8.

I suggest that the missing 3 tigers would be numbered like this;




Any thoughts?

David


I had not considered the possibility of a #71, but it does seem reasonable.

Dieser Beitrag wurde schon 1 mal editiert, zum letzten mal von John Winwood am 13.12.2014 18:02.

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I would like to give the idea that the Stafftigers were not.........the Tigers of the Staff. I mean not the Tigers for commander and such. The staff was organized on Panzer IIIs.

Thats the information I have from veteran and it is confirmed with photos.

In this case it is possible that both Stafftiger were used with other numbers.

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The Tigers 01 and 02 are listed in the 13 April 1943 manifest, whoever was using them.

David

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Still thinking about the Tigers and their numbers.

We know now that the original "21" was badly shot up. It was recovered but probably left in a workshop. We certainly don't have any photos of it after its battle. Perhaps it was never made operational again. Tiger "221" became the new "21".

Now, the usual German practice was to count tanks on their strength reports so long as the tank was still in their hands. When this battalion reported eleven surviving Tigers at the time that they joined the 504th, I assumed they were counting the old "21" in the eleven. Certainly we know that they had lost nine other Tigers out of twenty. Only with "21", I thought, is it possible to have eleven Tigers remaining.



But this chart raises a question.

It seems that they organised and numbered their Tigers to have 11 operational Tigers. The first two platoons are full strength, and the third platoon is smaller because they ran out of Tigers there.

If the damaged Tiger "21" is on this chart, it's not in the third platoon; we know who those two Tigers are. It would have to be in the first or second platoon.

The question is: why would you assign a role to a Tiger that is full of holes? A Tiger with penetrations of the turret and hull? Was it reparable?

This question may be answered by a curious entry in the book "Trail of the Tigers" by Ron Klages. It states that not 20, but 21 Tigers were delivered to s.Pz.Abt.501. The final Tiger is one that we have not noticed in photos. It was, according to the book, delivered on 9 December 1942, and its chassis number was 250059.

That is a much higher chassis number than those of the other 20 Tigers. This mysterious Tiger, if it existed, would have a large tactical number painted on it, but it would look different to the other Tigers of this company. It would have a turret side hatch and extended front hull.

So, is this an error in Ron's book, or did this extra Tiger arrive? Because it would neatly answer the question that I asked above.

There is a list of Tigers found in Tunisia by a British officer. We can recognise many of the tanks listed in it, although there are a few obvious errors and much missing information.

One item in the list is a Tiger with chassis number 250059, manufacturer "dkr", year of manufacture 1942. It was found with its turret missing, demolished.

If these are two errors, it's a curious coincidence that the chassis number matches.

Is this Tiger sitting in front of our eyes, somewhere in the organisational chart that I drew?

David

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"We know now that the original "21" was badly shot up."

Is that true? I missed something I guess....



Was it possible that a extra Tiger with chassis number 250059 was delivered on December 1942 in Tunisia?

That is a date Schneider gives too in his TIK1 and TIK2(059), but it means not delivered to the the unit but delivered to Tunisia. But if that was a new one, why would it send to the unit while they was full equiped? Sending a new Tiger would mean one of the 501 Tigers was lost before the unit was shipped to tunisia. Procedure: One Tiger was found useless in the training days with 501, they send him back to factory and they get a new one as replacement. But they would not get any extra Tiger for overstrenght!

We never had seen Tiger 221 so far and the mysterious 250059 could be possible a replacement for him, because the original 221 has never reached Tunisia. Otherwise I would say that the 9.December was a impossible time frame to arrive the replacement tank for a Tiger wich was lost in a fight in Tunisia. Personly I would say there was not any replacement for a lost Tiger in Tunisia possible because once they had reached Tunisia they were cut out from any supplies over the sea way and were lost long before the end.

Can it be a coincidence that this Tiger was one of the first losses of 501 and thats the reason why we had never seen him too? It would make sense because the chassis was found turretless after end of campaign in german quarters if I understand it right.

It seems that in 2./501 was no tanker with a camera but only in 1./501. So this fact and the possible early loss of 250059 could be a reason for the absence of any photo. Another reason could be, that he never get any unit typical future or turret number before his breakdown. It would be possible that he was photographed, but we found nothing to ID him as a 501 Tiger.

On the other hand we know how a mistake was born and make his way to many stations. If Klages and Schneiders chassis number is based on the report from Tunisia only, than it is a explanation. It could be a guess by both(or they take it from each other) if the chassis number is not approved by a delivery report from Waffenamt. I think many of the chassis numbers in connection with the delivery dates are based on research but not on documents. Example: Schneider found a delivery from factory/Waffenamt to 501 on 9.December 1942 and he also was aware of the english report of Tunisia where he found a chasssi number 200059 documented. He would (logical) guess that the delivery date and that number belongs together. But that would mean not, that the number in the english report is not a mistake. May it was 019 or 029 but not 059 and it gave the base for any further mistakes?

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Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
We never had seen Tiger 221 so far


From the book "Tiger Without a Home" :

"Tiger 712 had been assigned at least two other tactical numbers before its capture. The first beginning with a pair of twos, with the last digit remaining undetermined"



This "pair of twos" is not visible in any photo, but the author or his interviewee had first-hand knowledge of the tank, and we have no reason to mistrust them. Certainly this report is not contradicted by knowledge that we got from other sources.

So, this Tiger in Fort Benning would be "221". From our other research we had already concluded that it must be either "221" or "21", or else the renumbering was more complex than we think.

Now, if this was "221" then we still need a "21".

In the 2.company attack on Robaa there was one Tiger knocked out on the site, and one Tiger badly shot up but taken away. We have diagrams of the damage on the removed Tiger. We can see all the other 2.company Tigers at later times, and they don't have this damage - except for "21" which we never see again.

So that's why I said the original "21" was badly shot up.

David

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"This "pair of twos" is not visible in any photo, but the author or his interviewee had first-hand knowledge of the tank, and we have no reason to mistrust them."

The photos are by far clear enough and thats exactly a reason to misstrust that report. There isn´t a sign in any way for a former "2" under the "1" in the middle and no sign of a former "1" under the "2" at the end. But we see clearly the old "2" and the old "8" under the new "7" thats a fact.

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But it is peculiar that this author would state so clearly that there was a "pair of twos" followed by an unknown digit.
There was the opportunity then to sand the paint off the tank, which could reveal things invisible in photos.

In any case, this does not greatly affect the subject of my post. If this Fort Benning Tiger was always "21" then the Tiger "221" must be the one badly damaged, and once again we must ask why it was assigned a new number in the diagram.

David

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Where is Tiger 711 in your list coming from?


We had still 01 and 02 (probably)

111=71

???=711

21/81=712

241=714

121=721

141=722

112=724

131=731

132=732


Is 711 confirmed somewhere as being a Tiger?

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This is interesting.
How do you know that 241 became 714, or that 121 became 721 ?
Why do you have 141 as a survivor of Hunt's Gap? Who is the exploded hull in the mud?

David

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That is no answer

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In the diagram I marked 711 and 714 as "undocumented", so the answer is no.

David

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But the idea of a existing Tiger 711 should come from somewhere.


The 2./501 didn´t exist anymore but was integrated in the 1./501 what carry numbers with "7" now.

Staff Tiger as before with unclear use.

Chief of 1. Kompanie as before Tiger #71

Chief of 2. Kompanie now Zugführer probably of the 1.Zug in Tiger #712

Zugführer of the 4.Zug 2.Kompanie with Tiger #241/841 now as Halbzugführer in the 1.Zug in probably the other last remaining(working) Tiger from former 2.Komp in #714.This is with Tiger #813 also thinkable.

Zugführer in the still existing 2.Zug Tiger #121 now Tiger #721.

Zugführer in #141 of the 4.Zug before wich was deletetd now in Tiger #722.

Halbzugführer in #112 in 1.Zug still existing but filled up with Tigers of the former 2.Kompanie now as Halbzugführer in Tiger 724 of the 2.Zug.

3.Zug no change with Tigers eccept the turret number changed to #731 and #732.

Dos this make any sense to you?

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An interesting list!

We are speculating here, of course, but it's possible that the shape of the renumbering operation will become clear to us.

Here is my list of the Tigers that remained after Operation Ochsenkopf:

01 02 111 112 121 131 132 81 813 841 ???

I don't know why you listed 141 as a survivor? We can see 813 escaping.

There is a mystery Tiger at the end. There is one Tiger badly damaged on the Robaa road, I think that it's "21" but it could be "221". In any case, it is not a likely candidate for fighting again. So I was suggesting that this mystery Tiger was 250059.

Here is the renumbering that we are sure about :

01 -> 01
02 -> 02
111 -> 71
112 -> 724
121 ->
131 -> 731
132 -> 732
81 -> 712
813 ->
841 ->
??? ->

Now, I am not sure that we can complete the mapping by putting old platoon leaders in command of the new platoons.

Is it always necessary to have more experience, or a higher rank, to get the command of a platoon?

Also, it's possible for a crew to take somebody else's tank. Surely it was the commander of Tiger "11" who took over Tiger "71"?

Also, with only eleven Tigers remaining, we have more platoon commanders than platoons.

And it's also possible that a platoon commander could be killed or wounded, even if his Tiger survived. Many crew were injured at Hunt's Gap. Lt. Vermehren was injured, therefore we cannot assume that "121" became a platoon command tank. But we don't know about the other platoon leaders.

I think that we need more photos to complete the list.

David

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FWIW. Regarding a possible #735, Panzer III -- I had the following in my notes credited to Jentz.

On 18 April 1943, the 1.Kompanie/schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 was attached to Kampfgruppe Ickens along with elements of Panzer-Regiment 5 and Panzer-Regiment 8. On 19 April, the 1.Kompanie/schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 reported their operational strength as five Tigers (tactical numbers 111, 712, 724, 731, 732), six Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.N (tactical numbers 713, 723, 725, 733, 734, 735), and three Pz.Kpfw.III Ausf.M (tactical numbers 01, 113, 114).

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I see, you meant Tiger 141 was a loss at Beja. I forgot about that and had still in mind he wasn´t there at the time because of engine problems.
Ok, 141 was out too and it dos not make it easier.

Like allways on this point we have more Tigers in the lists as possible. So at least #711 should be a ghost.


I see Tiger 722 is documented but 714 not. How is 722 documented? Both Tigers are on the english wreck list.

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"722" was listed in the company's strength report on 13 April. In fact, my first diagram represents exactly the report, as reproduced in "Combat tactics" by Doyle and Jentz.

So, by 13 April they had lost 3 Tigers of the eleven.

And six days later they had lost another 4 Tigers. They got a gift of a Tiger "111", perhaps this fresh Tiger became the new company command?

David

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Allen Dail
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Dabei seit: 23.04.2008
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So was 735 John mentioned renumbered from a 501 or 504 Panzer III ? Since between the two listings 501 Panzer III's missing from first to second list 715, and 504 Panzer III s transferred to 501# 02. So was it 715 or 02 or a completely different Panzer III.
Allen

Dieser Beitrag wurde schon 2 mal editiert, zum letzten mal von Allen Dail am 02.08.2017 03:06.

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