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Hartmut von Holdt
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Dabei seit: 16.02.2008
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Welcher Ort und welche Brücke? Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Wo genau befinden sich die Panzer der 501 hier......in welchem Ort und auf welcher Brücke?

Where exactly were the tanks here.......what village and what bridge was this?






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Hartmut von Holdt

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Allen Dail
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Dabei seit: 23.04.2008
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Djedeida or now just Jedeida Zitatantwort auf diesen Beitrag erstellen Diesen Beitrag editieren/löschen Diesen Beitrag einem Moderator melden       IP Information Zum Anfang der Seite springen

Hello Hartmut
I believe this is Kampfgruppe Ludeder crossing bridge in deedeidja.
If you enlarge the first pic from the army WW II pic you can see some of the details.
I tried to link modern goggle maps but had no luck.
If you type in jedeida in search. Then when you get the map go to the upper right and click satellie and get the view enlarge just to the lower right of mark on the large building and bridge. You can see the antenna today as well.










I think the first 3 Panzer 3 are 501 vehicles and the Tigers are 111 and 112. .
The other vehicles waiting are probably 10th Panzer div.
Allen

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Hartmut von Holdt
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Hi Allen,

thank you very much for that. In fact i thought it was the same location you´ve said. I know it under "Jedeida".

Today there is not this old roman bridge anymore but a new one. But it is also the shape of the road what fits and probably there was the scene in 1942.

The 501 tanks just arieved in "Bizerte" and the first march was the first effort for the unit. Thats what we see on the photos with brand new tanks.

I will post some google pics later


Jedeida


Btw the Tiger were Tiger 11(not 111) and Tiger 112! But i am sure one day you guys will accept this Augenzwinkern

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Hartmut von Holdt

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Greg Del Nero
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Well done Allen. Great research! Where can I find your Army photo? Is it on the web?

Greg

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Allen Dail
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Thanks Greg
Here is the link and I hope it works. Well it doesnt seem to work here either. Copy and paste it into agoole and it seems to work. I am not sure what I am doing wrong.
www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-MTO.../index.html
Then scroll down to illustrations Dejedeida 304
I couldnt get just the picture link to work.
Allen

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Hartmut von Holdt
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Hi again Allen,

i wonder if you may have an idea what we see here?



These are 2.Kompanie tanks and a different time frame.

The street sign says 22 k to Tunis and that shoud be exactly the distance to Jedeida. May the street sign is on the wrong side of the road..............

There is a radio pole too and it looks like they drive to a roman bridge to cross a river.

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Hartmut von Holdt

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Allen Dail
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Hello Hartmut
You are right we,Jedeida it is well spotted . Looks like the second company coming across the bridge from the opposite direction as the 1st company photo series.
You can barly see the arch of the bridge in the lower corner of the photo you posted.
The radio tower and bracket on the side of the building match




Allen

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Allen Dail
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Hartmut von Holdt
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Thanks again Allen, i see it now. The 2.Komp. drove indeed in direction to tunis on this photos.





A small adition may is that the palm is on the other side and with the building arangement there.



I read somewhere that this bridge was blowing off on 26.11.1942. The bridge was blowing off, but that date is probably incorrect?

The 2.Komp. drove to Saida(TIC1) and that is what we see on the street sign. But that happens around 26.12 to 30.12.42. So the bridge was blowing away probably later in 1943.

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Hartmut von Holdt
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Here on this pic the tanks are near the bridge coming from the other side and passing the tower and the big house.




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Long time the questions about the first engagement for 501 in Djedeida and what Tigers were used by the Kompanie leaders and stuff like that confused me.

In an Article of Jean Restayn i read about Haupmann von Nolde was actually the commander of Tiger 100 but nobody knows if this tank ever exsist. So he said he commanded in fact Tiger 111 on Dec.1. at Djedeida, but later Tiger 142 and nailed von Nolde as the commander of Tiger 142.

This is confusing because von Nolde found his dead on that day and if he commanded Tiger 111 how he could commanding Tiger 142 later(after he died)?

What i think is the initial error here that Restayn thought the Tiger on the bridge in Djedeida was 111.



He count the Tigers in Djedeida and came correctly to 3 tanks. Tiger 111 he thought, Tiger 112 and Tiger 142. I think Tiger 142 was mentioned in reports from that day(veterans probably).
His error was to think the Tiger was 111 but in fact that Tiger was 11, the Tiger of the Kompanie leader. What we see on the photo above is Tiger 11 and very probably with commander von Nolde in the cupola.

That was one part of the irritation.

The second part was that he didn´t know possibly that Eberhard Deichmann who takes over the command of the 1.Kompanie after the dead of von Nolde, was the commander of Tiger 142. May Restayn believes Deichmann takes the command and von Nolde´s Tiger too. But it seems more likely that Deichmann takes over command but still uses his own Tiger 142.

In this line i btw think this photo here could be an important document because i believe it shows Deichmann in Tiger 142 in Djedeida and is possibly the last photo of him before he died too.





Now the next confusing stuff......

This text you can find many times in the net on different boards:


"3 Tiger I hatten (zusammen mit 4 Pz III N ) dann am 01.12.1942 den ersten Feindkontakt, hier mit Panzern der 1. US-PzDiv. Bei Tebourba trafen die Tiger auf Sherman, General Lee und M3 Scout Car, die von der 1./501 bekämpft wurden. Folgende Tiger waren an dem Kampf beteiligt: 112 , 124, 131 und 142. was auffällig war ist, dass in den ersten Wochen kein Tiger über seine Stammbesatzung verfügte. Fast bei jedem Einsatz wurden die Besatzungen neu zusammengestellt, besonders die Kommandanten wechselten teilweise mehrmals am Tage. Die vier genannten Tiger teilten sich als Kommandanten Hauptmann Baron von Nolde, Hptm Deichmann, Lt. Joschko und Lt. Vermehren. Wie man merkt, war die 1. Kompanie in diesen Tagen gut mit Offizieren versorgt.
Nach dem mit nur 3 Stunden eher kurzen Gefecht standen 34 Kampfpanzer und 6 Scout cars brennend oder verlassen auf dem Gefechtsfeld. Verluste auf deutscher Seite gab es nur wenige, es gingen keine Panzer verloren, jedoch wurden Hptm Nikolai Baron von Nolde (der in Afrika immer Tennisschuhe trug) und Hptm Eberhard Deichmann im Turmluk durch Scharfschützen getötet (Jentz schreibt, Nolde sei durch Artillerietreffer gefallen, was wahrscheinlicher ist). Deichmann wurde noch 2 Panzerabschüsse zugesprochen. Beide liegen auf dem Kriegsgräberfriedhof in Tunis."


I really can´t imagine where this stuff coming from but it is partly bull....
Tiger 131 ?
Tiger 124 ???

I think it is without doubt that 4 Tigers were in or around Djedeida, but only Tiger 112 and Tiger 142 is correct here. The third Tiger was 11 and the fourth was Tiger 132(but he seems the one who was in repair and was not part of the first battle). I would say all the known photos from that time frame confirm that.

So i ask myself now what can i believe from this so called historical document and what not.

Do someone know where these information are coming from?
Can i believe that Lt. Joschko und Lt. Vermehren too were present in Djedeida on Dec.1. ?

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David Byrden
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Hartmut;

Concerning the Tigers on the bridge and what they were doing there. I'm doubtful about your date of the first action of Tigers in Africa.

Let's look at the descriptions;

On 24 November 1942, "Tigers in Combat 1" says "Prior to the arrival of the first Tigers, a Kampfgruppe...is formed..."

This group starts fighting near Djedeida on the 25th. But why is it "prior" to the arrival of Tigers? They are in Africa, but I think they are not ready for battle yet. Perhaps they are not near Djedeida. I think this Kampfgruppe is using Pz 3, if it has any tanks at all.

Look at the text for 1 December; "First employment of 3 Tigers and 4 Pz 3s...." Why do they call it "first employment" if they have already used Tigers?

Now, if you read Major Lueder's report in "Tiger I & II; combat tactics", he describes the 1 December action in detail, but he doesn't describe the November 25 action - even though he was commanding the battle group. Why not? I think he is reporting on Tigers only.

I think that 1 December is actually the first battle involving Tigers in Africa.

And so of course Tiger 142 was involved.

David

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David Byrden
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Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
In this line i btw think this photo here could be an important document because i believe it shows Deichmann in Tiger 142 in Djedeida and is possibly the last photo of him before he died too.




Why do you think it's Djedeida?

I don't think this is Hptm. Deichmann. The photo is printed fairly well in my "Tiger I on the Western Front" and I can't see a wedding ring on the commander's hand. Hptm. Deichmann wore one, and possibly also a splint on the same finger;



David

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Hartmut von Holdt
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I didn´t saw this photo in better scan so far. But thats not important cause photo work is not the theme on this board.

I come back to you when a bought that old book some day.

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Hartmut von Holdt
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Zitat:
Original von David Byrden
Hartmut;

Concerning the Tigers on the bridge and what they were doing there. I'm doubtful about your date of the first action of Tigers in Africa.

Let's look at the descriptions;

On 24 November 1942, "Tigers in Combat 1" says "Prior to the arrival of the first Tigers, a Kampfgruppe...is formed..."

This group starts fighting near Djedeida on the 25th. But why is it "prior" to the arrival of Tigers? They are in Africa, but I think they are not ready for battle yet. Perhaps they are not near Djedeida. I think this Kampfgruppe is using Pz 3, if it has any tanks at all.

Look at the text for 1 December; "First employment of 3 Tigers and 4 Pz 3s...." Why do they call it "first employment" if they have already used Tigers?

Now, if you read Major Lueder's report in "Tiger I & II; combat tactics", he describes the 1 December action in detail, but he doesn't describe the November 25 action - even though he was commanding the battle group. Why not? I think he is reporting on Tigers only.

I think that 1 December is actually the first battle involving Tigers in Africa.

And so of course Tiger 142 was involved.

David



I am not sure. I understand it this way that the battle group was allready formed before the first Tiger arrived. But the first 3 Tigers arrived on 23.11.42.
If they had a battlegroup allready, why should those 501 tanker not use their 3 Tigers?

I understand the first action on 1.12.42 as the first action as independent unit 501. Possible Schneider was just unsure how to call the first group in action?

Maybe a look on the time space can give us answers?

The maximum time space would be if the first three Tigers arrived in the morning of 23. in Bizerta and the fighting around Jedeida began at 11:00 on 25.
The distance from Bizerta to Jedeida was about 80km. I guess it would take a Tiger around 3 to 4 hours time to manage this distance. Probably they would need another 5 to 6 hours to made the Tigers ready to battle.

(BTW:I wonder if a Tiger was transferd by train or ship with his ammo on board?)

Let´s say they need a minimum of 10 hours to bring the Tigers to battle in Jedeida. I think that is quite possible that the Tigers saw earl action on 25.

On the other side it is hard to imagine that Major Lueder had three Tigers on hand for almost a week, but he didn´t use them untill December 1.

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Hartmut von Holdt

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David Byrden
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I can see some information in "Northwest Africa: Seizing the Initiative in the West" by Howe. But, using Google Books, I can't see the entire page.

"Ready at Djedeida, a fourth group (Group Djedeida) would pursue the Allies if they pulled back during the tank operations north of Tebourba but otherwise would await General Fischer's specific order to attack."
....

"Group Djedeida included one company of parachute infantry, two companies of regular infantry, two antiaircraft companies, eighteen 20-mm. guns, a motorcycle engineer platoon, elements of a tank destroyer company (three 55-mm. guns), two Mark III tanks and the two untried Tiger tanks which had successfully made the overland trip from port to battle front. "

From this book and others, it is clear that the Tigers were placed in Gruppe Djedeida, not Gruppe Lüder. And this Gruppe was the reserve. So it's quite possible that they didn't attack until 1 December. But I will have to buy a book to be sure!

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
Can i believe that Lt. Joschko und Lt. Vermehren too were present in Djedeida on Dec.1. ?


According to Tiger I & II; combat tactics, Lt. Vermehren took command of the Tigers after Baron von Nolde was wounded, until 4 December when Major Lüder returned.

David

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Jerry Mumot
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Luder had no Tigers under his control until 4 December, his Kampfgruppe was composed of completely different units. One battalion commander happened to be killed by strafing 2 days before Luder's arrival, so he was commandeered because the commander was needed and no one else was available.

KG Luder counterattacked SE of Medjez el Bab on 25th, attacked Tebourba on 27th, and then moved back into the hills N of Tebourba. Tigers were being held in reserve during this time. Since 1 December, Luder was attacking Tebourba from the NW (Tigers were advancing from E-NE)

Luder was not personally present with Tigers on 1-3 December so what he wrote in his report was based on what others told him

I'm gonna post something longer here today evening

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Hartmut von Holdt
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Schneider TIC1:
2.12.42 Die Kampfgruppe Lueder(dabei 1 Tiger und 5 Panzer III) greift auf Befehl des Kommandeurs der 10.Panzerdivision Tebourba an.


Zitat:
Original von David Byrden
Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
Can i believe that Lt. Joschko und Lt. Vermehren too were present in Djedeida on Dec.1. ?


According to Tiger I & II; combat tactics, Lt. Vermehren took command of the Tigers after Baron von Nolde was wounded, until 4 December when Major Lüder returned.

David


Schneider TIC1:

1.12.42 Dabei fällt der Kompaniechef Hauptmann von Nolde. Oberleutnant Deichmann übernimmt.

So Schneider wrote Deichmann take over command but not Vermehren. But he also wrote that Deichmann was killed on the same day. He not mention that Vermehren take over command after Deichmann was killed.

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Jerry Mumot
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OK so the main and the only reliable source of information about the battle in Tebourba is Luder's first report. I don't have an original but hopefully no one will be angry if i just post it scanned from Jentz, Panzertruppen:







Many books used this account as a source but they usually twisted around some facts. I propose to discard all other secondary sources entirely and just follow the Luder's words.





Here are the relevant masseges from 90. Corps war diary related to Tigers and KG Luder from 22-30 November

Luder's arrival to headquarters on 22 November:


KG Luder was formed shortly after from HQ, 1st and 3rd company/Panzer-Abteilung 190, 3./Motorcycle Battalion 10 (Kradschuetzen-Bataillon 10, also known as K 10) and a few PAK guns.

24 November, KG Luder is ordered to Furna


25 November, strong enemy attack on Medjez el Bab... enemy tanks also attempt to advance along the eastern bank of Medjerda. Our Panzer company takes positions on the hills SE of Medjez, but the enemy pulls back.


17:45 - Panzergruppe has to return to St. Cyprien immidiately


27 November
Kampfgruppe Luder attacks on Tebourba but can't break the enemy resistance.. Kampfgruppe pulls back to Djedeida. Enemy losses are heavy, 8 small-caliber PAK, 9 self-propelled guns, 3 armored cars, 2 tanks, 21 trucks and ammo vehicle.
Our losses are significant, 8 Panzers are total write-offs and 4 require repairs


orders for 28 November: the rest of Pz.Abt.190 moves out at 8:00 and takes the hills 14-15 kms SE of Mateur


28 November, advance in progress:


Now this is interesting! 28 November at evening, Gruppe Nolde (Pz.VI) started withdrawal towards Djedeida (????)


28 November, accting on orders from Hitler, Oberst Thomale and Oberstleutnant Bolbrinker arrive to inspect the Tigers


29 November, Gruppe Luder is still 15 kms SE of Mateur. Luder will push south to bind the enemy and Tigers will advance from Djedeida towards north (??)


30 November, British paratroopers landed south of Tunis and it seems like at one point 3 Tigers amd 4 other tanks were ordered to stop them at La Mohamedia


Strength report from the evening on 30 November, there are 64 combat-ready tanks, 2 Tigers are combat ready, 1 has problem with steering gear (Lenkgetriebe), 1 with the engine.


Sorry for sketchy translation, I'm really tired. Hope it helps, I'm gonna keep digging thru it.

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These records are fascinating; did you ever find more? But the translation is not easy.

On 28 November, Gruppe Nolde's "rückmarsch" towards Djedeida is perhaps not a "return" to a place that they came from, but a "withdrawal" to a place of rest.

On 29 November, I don't think the Tigers "advance from Djedeida towards north" on that day.
The verb "soll", as far as I know, indicates an intent to do something which has not happened yet.
So I think the Tigers "shall move quickly to the north of Djedeida" to support Gruppe Lüder when the Gruppe pushes south. But this is just a plan. It doesn't happen on the 29th.

And that's why there is talk about sending the Tigers to Mohamedia on the 30th; because the Tigers are still available in their base.

According to Lüder, the Tigers left their base at 13:00 on 1 December, and they moved to the north of Djedeida to attack Tebourba via the northern side of Hill 186.

Various accounts say that 2 Tigers were in Gruppe Djedeida, while 1 Tiger was with Gruppe Lüder, which pushed south, coming through Chouigui to attack Tebourba from the north-west.

Now that I have identified the location of Tiger 132 in these photos, we know that it's in a suitable area for Gruppe Lüder.




Now, I have a question. What Tiger arrived in the first shipment; "11" or "111" ?

Because I suspect that the photos of "111" and "112", crossing a bridge in Djedeida, are from 1 December.



David

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John Winwood
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Good find. What do you think of these two which seem to have been taken at the same time due to the external storage arrangement on the turrets? Perhaps the paved road from Tunis en route to Djedeida? Maybe R.N.7?

Dieser Beitrag wurde schon 1 mal editiert, zum letzten mal von John Winwood am 02.01.2014 21:30.

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David Byrden
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Zitat:
Original von John Winwood
What do you think of these two...


I'm replying in the Tiger locations thread.

David

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Zitat:
Original von John Winwood
Good find. What do you think of these two which seem to have been taken at the same time due to the external storage arrangement on the turrets? Perhaps the paved road from Tunis en route to Djedeida? Maybe R.N.7?



John, please accept my apologies. I was wrong all this time.
They are on RN7, just like you said.



David

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Only for information:
The "box obejcts" are a 3kg and a 1 kg demolition charge (3kg geballte ladung and a 1kg Sprengbüche 24)

So I think the soldiers in the corner of the wall are engineers preparing to blow up the bridge. They wiill need a few more 3kg charges for that kind of bridge.

Of course, the charges will be attached to the basement of the bridge.

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