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Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 8.SS 42/43
David Byrden

Antworten: 114
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18.01.2018 17:55 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

I'm assuming that these two are from the same scene, although I have only the
angle of the gun, the dress of the man and the fact that there are trees behind.
Does anybody disagree? The Bundesarchiv negative numbers would settle it of course.



David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 8.SS 42/43
David Byrden

Antworten: 114
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12.01.2018 18:16 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

I've added this to the gallery.
Chris, can you just confirm that "813" is legible? I can't read it on this little copy.



And this pair seem to be taken moments apart, but the angle of the loader's hatch confirms it:



Chris, you suggested this one to me as "821", but can you be sure that it's not "S21"? Is there a date for it?
I don't see the divisional rune on the rear wall, which makes me favour "821".



This one is obviously the same scene (sunlight in the same direction, both taken from an aircraft, same tank).
You point out that its cross doesn't yet have the white outline, which again points to "821" rather than "S21".



David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 8.SS 42/43
David Byrden

Antworten: 114
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12.01.2018 01:45 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

This one is undoubtedly "Tiki", because of the turret camouflage (and the unusual type of mantlet).



The hull camouflage is almost impossible to make out, but clearly the hull is filthy.

So this can be 812, 833 or S34.

We can rule out S34 because the smoke launchers were removed during the 833 period, at the latest.

Given the amount of white colour that I see in the area of the turret digits, I would think it's 812.
And I'm also persuaded by the spare wheel lying on the glacis plate. It looks very much like the spare wheel carried around on this day:



And on that day, the tank was "812". What do you think?

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 8.SS 42/43
David Byrden

Antworten: 114
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12.01.2018 01:32 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

Chris forwarded me this gallery-size photo:



It's a whitewashed Tiger wreck near a tree, the cross suggests DR, and we have two candidates.

First, look at "831" :



In this photo all the wheels are gone, but on the right hull side, the rear half remains white.

The mystery photo would be taken earlier since many road wheels remain. BUT the mystery tank has dirt on the rear side well past the half way mark.

Furthermore, "831" has dirt reaching all the way to the front hull side, and it seems clear that it was deposited while the side skirts were in place. The mystery tank has no dirt at its front.

I also can't see any sign of the bottom of the sponson being blown out, no matter how I enhance the photo of 831. And why should it be? The tank hit a mine.

I don't think it can be a match for 831.

The other candidate is this unknown Tiger which is almost certainly "842" though I don't want to sort it just yet;



The wheels on its right side are already compatible with the mystery photo. The environment (trees) is compatible.



We can't see more, but really there are no other candidate tanks from DR that were lost during the whitewash period.

I think they are the same Tiger.

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 8.SS 42/43
David Byrden

Antworten: 114
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11.01.2018 18:46 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

There are some dates in "Tigers in Combat" which may help.

20 April 1943 : General Kruger's speech.
"Tiki" has solid white numbers on this date.
We have not seen any other DR Tiger with solid white numbers. We know that "832" did not have solid white numbers at any time. Probably "Tiki" was marked up specifically for the ceremony.

24 April 1943 : Himmler's visit.
At least three Tigers have hollow white digits on this date.

Now, here is my theory:
- ALL of the Tigers got hollow white digits between 20 and 24 April, including "Tiki" which became "833".

Why do I say that? Could Tiki not be "812" on 24 April?
Look at the complete list of hollow white numbers. There are 3 platoons with 2 Tigers each. They are numbered in a simple pattern.

802
811
813
821
823
831
833

If "Tiki" was still "812" on the 24 April, then this pattern would be broken.

So, I am concluding that a complete renumbering of the entire company took place between 20 April and 24 April.

-----------------

Staff Tigers:

TIC2 speaks of the original Staff Tigers as "801" and "802". The photos tell us that this is wrong.

It says that the "Chefpanzer", which we would conclude to be "800", sank on 25 February.

In March it says that "801" was in action, which is credible. But it also says that "801" used to be "802". Again, the photos disagree. I think that somebody's memory was bad about this issue.

The remaining Staff Tiger should have become "802" in the renumbering in April. We have one photo of "802" which is said to be taken on 1 May.

So I must conclude that this is one of the errors in the TIC books.

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 8.SS 42/43
David Byrden

Antworten: 114
Hits: 74867

11.01.2018 01:41 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
The plan for summer 43 was probably to number the command Tiger 801 and 802 and thats the reason we see the 802 on former 801 and the awaitet old 800 was planed as the new 801.


Is it possible that this Tiger was already renumbered as 801 when it sank underwater?

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
"Das Reich" paint new numbers on all Tigers just for one day when Himmler inspected the Kompanie.


Are we sure of that?
It does look like a "rush job"... the broken template numbers are not connected, and "823" was painted without obscuring the old "832", but are we sure that this renumbering happened for Himmler's visit?

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
"Tiki" was 812 but renumbered for a day to 833 and a day later to S34.


I don't have the book that you are reading. Was it really just one day? I thought that the S-numbers were used because new Tigers arrived. Certainly these new Tigers were not added on to the end of the sequence, they have low numbers like S12 and S14. So, did all of this happen the day after Himmler's visit?

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 8.SS 42/43
David Byrden

Antworten: 114
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RE: EBAY 09.01.2018 23:58 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

We were thinking that this should be 841.

Zitat:
Original von Rob Fraser


Its number ends with "1" and it has a reinforced mantlet, so there are only two candidates, 811 and 841.

I can confirm your decision. Look at the front of the right side skirting.
The triangular end panel is not whitewashed on this tank. That is a feature of 841 but not 811.



Also, if we line up the front hull walls of the two tanks, we can see a precisely matching dark spot, and closer to the MG ball there are some dark areas and patches that also match closely.



David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 8.SS 42/43
David Byrden

Antworten: 114
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09.01.2018 18:01 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

I think this one is "842".



Here I compare it to a known photo of "842":



- Flat mantlet, which cuts the number of candidates in half
- Trunnion is not whitewashed properly. No other candidate has a dark trunnion.
- Dark area around the eye holes
- Dark area on the raised curved area beside the eye holes
- Dark marks on the left thick area of the mantlet.

David

Thema: Unidentified Tiger I Mid-Production
David Byrden

Antworten: 84
Hits: 24134

07.01.2018 20:27 Forum: Tiger zuordnen

There's a Tiger on this page that's said to be near Kiev, but I would not limit my search to there. What do you think?

Early Tiger wreck

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 8.SS 42/43
David Byrden

Antworten: 114
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07.01.2018 00:58 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

I believe this to be 811.



I can rule out most of the Tigers but there are a few good candidates. The evidence for 811 isn't strong enough to warrant a Gallery move but I would put money on it.

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie SS PR.2
David Byrden

Antworten: 139
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06.01.2018 22:22 Forum: Schwere Panzerkompanie SS PR.2 Das Reich

Is it possible for me to rearrange the galleries to represent the different periods? At the moment there is confusion about what number is from when.

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie SS PR.2
David Byrden

Antworten: 139
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06.01.2018 18:38 Forum: Schwere Panzerkompanie SS PR.2 Das Reich

This one seems to be "S11".



We can only vaguely see a "1" in its number, so the options are "S11", "S13", "S21" if it's from the Kursk time frame. I am referring to my chart of the original DR Tigers with no turret spare tracks:

800 = 801 = S01
801 = 802 = S02
811 = 831 = S33
812 = 833 = S34
821 = 813 = S11
822 = 811 = S13
831 = destroyed
832 = 823 = S24
841 = 821 = S21
842 = destroyed

I am identifying it as "S11" because it has the "flat" mantlet. We can see the notch in the lower far corner.

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie SS PR.2
David Byrden

Antworten: 139
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06.01.2018 17:50 Forum: Schwere Panzerkompanie SS PR.2 Das Reich

This is a Bundesarchiv photo of the demonstration for the SS-Reichsfuhrer.
We have other photos showing that Tigers "811" and "823" were present; they can both be identified by camouflage markings in this photo (compare to "S13" and "S24").



This is gallery size. I'll post details if you need.

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie SS PR.2
David Byrden

Antworten: 139
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05.01.2018 20:11 Forum: Schwere Panzerkompanie SS PR.2 Das Reich

Here's a matching light patch over the driver's visor on both "811" and "S13".



Confirming the sequence 822 -> 811 -> S13

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie SS PR.2
David Byrden

Antworten: 139
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05.01.2018 00:16 Forum: Schwere Panzerkompanie SS PR.2 Das Reich

Chris: thank you for the photo of "811".

Here's "811" compared to "S13" from the Kursk time frame.



They are poor quality, but those dark patches seem very similarly placed.

There is also a light-coloured area by the pistol port, on both tanks.

I think you have correctly identified this photo:




The rear S-mine launcher is bent down at a lower angle than usual, which we see on S13. And, when I enhance the photo, once again I find two dark patches at the rear, in approximately the same positions as on "S13".



By enhancing the photo, I can see the 2nd digit appears to be "1".

David

Thema: Photo locations / Standort der Bilder
David Byrden

Antworten: 35
Hits: 6536

03.01.2018 23:29 Forum: sPzAbt.504



These two Tigers are at 42°57'59.18"N 10°56'21.39"E

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie SS PR.2
David Byrden

Antworten: 139
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03.01.2018 02:35 Forum: Schwere Panzerkompanie SS PR.2 Das Reich

I believe that the April tank "813" is actually the tank "821" / "S11". Witness the slight curve of the front mudguard. If we assume that its Balkankreuz is not applied yet, we have a dark patch matching "S11".



So that gives us all of the April numbers except for two.

I notice a pattern beginning to appear; the tanks always stay within their own platoon when the "S" numbers are applied. Also, Tiger numbers from April always end in "1" or "3".

Therefore we can speculate about the complete April numbering:

800 = 801 = S01
801 = 802 = S02
811 = 831 = S33
812 = 833 = S34
821 = 813 = S11
822 = 811 = S13 (no proof)
831 = destroyed
832 = 823 = S24
841 = 821 = S21 (no proof)
842 = destroyed


David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie SS PR.2
David Byrden

Antworten: 139
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02.01.2018 01:45 Forum: Schwere Panzerkompanie SS PR.2 Das Reich

We have this down as "S22" but I'm sure it is the earlier incarnation of the same tank, "S33". We made the decision based on how much damage it has.



I'm seeing a "3" here:



And, aligning myself to the dark camouflage marks etc. I am sure it's in exactly the same place as the "3" of "831" - which was reused as the middle digit of "S33".

Another thing I'm sure of, is that all our gallery photos do show the same tank. It's the same hull and turret together, all the way through 811 -> 831 -> S33 -> S22.
We don't seem to have any photos of an S22 from Operation Citadel.

I'm wondering how they could possibly fill the ranks up to S15, S25 and S33 when they had only 12 non-staff Tigers.

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie SS PR.2
David Byrden

Antworten: 139
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30.12.2017 01:54 Forum: Schwere Panzerkompanie SS PR.2 Das Reich

Re. the above suggestion, I wonder what you all think of this proposed chart of the renumbering?

It does not include the numbers of April 1943 (digits with stencil breaks, with a leading "8") nor the numbers of August 1943 (when additional Tigers had been donated by LSSAH). This is simply the original numbers mapped onto the June 1943 numbers.

800 = S01
801 = S02
811 = S33
812 = S34
821 = S11
822 = S13
831 = destroyed
832 = S24
841 = S21
842 = destroyed

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie SS PR.2
David Byrden

Antworten: 139
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RE: S33? AND ? 30.12.2017 00:50 Forum: Schwere Panzerkompanie SS PR.2 Das Reich



This Tiger is S11 because:

1. The DR symbol is low down and angled slightly. See this known photo of S11:



2. The turret still has the smoke launcher bracket, very unusual at this time for DR.

3. There is a subtle camouflage match; a pale area between the MG and visor on the hull front.

4. The right hand mudflap has similar distortions to the above photo, but increased.

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 8.SS 42/43
David Byrden

Antworten: 114
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27.12.2017 00:20 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

Who's this?



The tank is still in its winter whitewash, so we need only consider the original Tigers received by DR up to March 1943. This is our ten-candidate list:

800
801
811
812
821
822
831
832
841
842

The wreck is not on a boulevard, so we can rule out 831. We can also eliminate Tigers which we know to survive past March to be renumbered; 812 will become S34, 832 will become S24, 811 will become 831.

800
801
821
822
841
842

Looking for an identifying mark on the wreck, we find two items that could be the upper hole in the trunnion;



Without knowing which is the real hole, we can say that neither of them match the hole in Tiger "821":



We can also peer between the crewmen and see that the right mudflap on the unknown Tiger seems to be undamaged, different to the mudflap on "822" which developed a significant droop;



The wreck has an MG hole in the mantlet and is therefore not the company's Befehlstiger "800". We are left with :

801
841
842

"801" had some damage to its right hand mudflap; the top of the folding part is missing or bent, exposing the hull side;



The wreck had no damage at this place, therefore we are left with:

841
842

Tiger "841" survived long enough to have weathering marks on its whitewash, which I don't see on the wreck, looking at the right-hand hull front.



The only candidate not ruled out is "842".

This is not a strong identification since I have not found any matching features, and of course somebody could renew the whitewash if he were so inclined. But there is only one photograph of "842" and it shows the opposite sides of the tank.

So let's put this down as a probable 842 ?

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie SS PR.2
David Byrden

Antworten: 139
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25.12.2017 21:57 Forum: Schwere Panzerkompanie SS PR.2 Das Reich

About the Tiger with the good-luck symbol; we have several photos in which it is numbered "S22".



And we have photos of it at an earlier time, presumably Kursk, numbered "S33".



So this Tiger was not "S22" at the time of Kursk.

Consider this Tiger numbered "S23". It has an April turret fitted with an older turret bin taken from one of the original DR Tigers.



We can find many other photos of this same hull at Kursk, but it seems to have a different turret there. The turret bin is standard. The turret paint is very different.



It's almost impossible to read a number on it, but there is one photo where we can see "S2".

We can rule out "S21" and "S24". So we should remember that this Tiger may be either "S22" or "S23" at Kursk.




David

Thema: Photo locations
David Byrden

Antworten: 4
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29.11.2017 01:47 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

This was one of the more difficult location hunts that I have done. This photo should illustrate the problem. Once again, chimneys were critical to finding the spot.




This little house is the only structure that remains.



What matters to us at TIIF.DE is that the tank is wrecked in Kharkiv. We can correlate this with the unit diary. I've put the details here;

Tiger 831 is abandoned in Kharkiv


David

Thema: Photo locations
David Byrden

Antworten: 4
Hits: 376

23.11.2017 00:06 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

Thank you, Evgeniy !

I had already found the chimneys due to their shadows;



and, by intersecting those lines, we can position the tank to within 30 meters.

Now, this other photo has an interesting building with its own chimney, at the right:



And there is a large train shed at the left. This is easy to find, it still exists today, although its roof is different now.

The tall building and the chimney no longer exist, but I found them in one aerial photo;



I can see them better in your big photo, thank you!

The result : the two photos were taken very near to each other. The Tiger has turned around and moved.

David

Thema: Photo locations
David Byrden

Antworten: 4
Hits: 376

Photo locations 22.11.2017 18:00 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

This one can be located because Kharkiv had 4 tall chimneys in an industrial park, all of which are in the photo (and confirmed as such by a couple of buildings):



In fact, parallax of the chimneys is sufficient to locate the spot.

The chimneys no longer exist, but they can be seen on German reconnaissance photos of Kharkiv.

The tank is on a railway platform at about 49°59'34.62"N 36°12'14.41"E

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 8.SS 42/43
David Byrden

Antworten: 114
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19.11.2017 03:02 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

I propose a rearrangement of the gallery for this unit.

The current gallery is confusing because we have the same Tiger under two numbers ( 812 / 833 ) and we have two Tigers under the same number ( 831 ).

The reason is, these Tigers were renumbered in April 1943. The old numbers and the new numbers started with "8" but in general they were different numbers.

It's possible to follow some of the Tigers through this change:

811 -> 831
812 -> 833
832 -> 823

but in most cases we don't know which Tigers are which, and the current gallery does not illustrate the situation.

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 508 Italia 1944/45
David Byrden

Antworten: 196
Hits: 117014

29.10.2017 18:43 Forum: sPzAbt.508

This is from a German newsreel, said to be at Cisterna . Look at 1:50

I have not yet verified the locations. If Cisterna, then the Tiger belongs to 508.




The two images appear together on the film and appear to show the same Tiger; witness the squashed side skirts.

It's an unusual Tiger. It was built as a Befehlstiger; witness the C-hook holder between the exhausts.

It's also unusually early to be a 508 Tiger, earlier even than their Befehlstiger "A2". It has a hull-roof headlight and a track toolbox. It could of course be "A1" or "A3" which we have never identified.

But, the antenna tube is missing from the rear wall (its holders are there) and the left antenna mount is in use. It's very much more likely to be a Befehlstiger converted to a normal Tiger.

It's intriguing that this describes the famous "Mine layer" Tiger. I can't match these images to it, but it did get rebuilt and who knows what damage may have been repaired. However, the tray for the track toolbox is bent here, and undamaged in the "Mine layer" so it's probably not the same Tiger. That would be a pointless repair.

So, have 508 been concealing another "early mid" unknown?

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 8.SS 42/43
David Byrden

Antworten: 114
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12.10.2017 19:34 Forum: 8./SS-Panzerregiment 2 Das Reich

Can anybody send me a large copy of this one?



Or at least the part with the markings on the Tiger's back wall.

David

Thema: Ergänzung zur Gallerie 501 Tunesien
David Byrden

Antworten: 506
Hits: 266601

04.09.2017 08:26 Forum: sPzAbt.501/424

A very impressive new photo was posted on Facebook by Joe Dell.



It ties together this old photo



and this newsreel clip.



I still think that it's "01".

David

Thema: Photo locations / Standort der Bilder
David Byrden

Antworten: 35
Hits: 6536

21.08.2017 01:24 Forum: sPzAbt.504

Well, I have some exciting news - exciting to me at least.

Google have published Street Views for a limited set of roads in Tunisia.




So, for example, this is exactly where Tiger 121 was abandoned or knocked out.

David

Thema: Tiger tactical numbers
David Byrden

Antworten: 24
Hits: 9140

01.08.2017 22:56 Forum: sPzAbt.501/424

"722" was listed in the company's strength report on 13 April. In fact, my first diagram represents exactly the report, as reproduced in "Combat tactics" by Doyle and Jentz.

So, by 13 April they had lost 3 Tigers of the eleven.

And six days later they had lost another 4 Tigers. They got a gift of a Tiger "111", perhaps this fresh Tiger became the new company command?

David

Thema: Tiger tactical numbers
David Byrden

Antworten: 24
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01.08.2017 19:47 Forum: sPzAbt.501/424

An interesting list!

We are speculating here, of course, but it's possible that the shape of the renumbering operation will become clear to us.

Here is my list of the Tigers that remained after Operation Ochsenkopf:

01 02 111 112 121 131 132 81 813 841 ???

I don't know why you listed 141 as a survivor? We can see 813 escaping.

There is a mystery Tiger at the end. There is one Tiger badly damaged on the Robaa road, I think that it's "21" but it could be "221". In any case, it is not a likely candidate for fighting again. So I was suggesting that this mystery Tiger was 250059.

Here is the renumbering that we are sure about :

01 -> 01
02 -> 02
111 -> 71
112 -> 724
121 ->
131 -> 731
132 -> 732
81 -> 712
813 ->
841 ->
??? ->

Now, I am not sure that we can complete the mapping by putting old platoon leaders in command of the new platoons.

Is it always necessary to have more experience, or a higher rank, to get the command of a platoon?

Also, it's possible for a crew to take somebody else's tank. Surely it was the commander of Tiger "11" who took over Tiger "71"?

Also, with only eleven Tigers remaining, we have more platoon commanders than platoons.

And it's also possible that a platoon commander could be killed or wounded, even if his Tiger survived. Many crew were injured at Hunt's Gap. Lt. Vermehren was injured, therefore we cannot assume that "121" became a platoon command tank. But we don't know about the other platoon leaders.

I think that we need more photos to complete the list.

David

Thema: Tiger tactical numbers
David Byrden

Antworten: 24
Hits: 9140

01.08.2017 14:45 Forum: sPzAbt.501/424

In the diagram I marked 711 and 714 as "undocumented", so the answer is no.

David

Thema: Tiger tactical numbers
David Byrden

Antworten: 24
Hits: 9140

01.08.2017 14:39 Forum: sPzAbt.501/424

This is interesting.
How do you know that 241 became 714, or that 121 became 721 ?
Why do you have 141 as a survivor of Hunt's Gap? Who is the exploded hull in the mud?

David

Thema: Tiger tactical numbers
David Byrden

Antworten: 24
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01.08.2017 13:13 Forum: sPzAbt.501/424

But it is peculiar that this author would state so clearly that there was a "pair of twos" followed by an unknown digit.
There was the opportunity then to sand the paint off the tank, which could reveal things invisible in photos.

In any case, this does not greatly affect the subject of my post. If this Fort Benning Tiger was always "21" then the Tiger "221" must be the one badly damaged, and once again we must ask why it was assigned a new number in the diagram.

David

Thema: Tiger tactical numbers
David Byrden

Antworten: 24
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01.08.2017 12:25 Forum: sPzAbt.501/424

Zitat:
Original von Hartmut von Holdt
We never had seen Tiger 221 so far


From the book "Tiger Without a Home" :

"Tiger 712 had been assigned at least two other tactical numbers before its capture. The first beginning with a pair of twos, with the last digit remaining undetermined"



This "pair of twos" is not visible in any photo, but the author or his interviewee had first-hand knowledge of the tank, and we have no reason to mistrust them. Certainly this report is not contradicted by knowledge that we got from other sources.

So, this Tiger in Fort Benning would be "221". From our other research we had already concluded that it must be either "221" or "21", or else the renumbering was more complex than we think.

Now, if this was "221" then we still need a "21".

In the 2.company attack on Robaa there was one Tiger knocked out on the site, and one Tiger badly shot up but taken away. We have diagrams of the damage on the removed Tiger. We can see all the other 2.company Tigers at later times, and they don't have this damage - except for "21" which we never see again.

So that's why I said the original "21" was badly shot up.

David

Thema: Tiger tactical numbers
David Byrden

Antworten: 24
Hits: 9140

31.07.2017 23:08 Forum: sPzAbt.501/424

Still thinking about the Tigers and their numbers.

We know now that the original "21" was badly shot up. It was recovered but probably left in a workshop. We certainly don't have any photos of it after its battle. Perhaps it was never made operational again. Tiger "221" became the new "21".

Now, the usual German practice was to count tanks on their strength reports so long as the tank was still in their hands. When this battalion reported eleven surviving Tigers at the time that they joined the 504th, I assumed they were counting the old "21" in the eleven. Certainly we know that they had lost nine other Tigers out of twenty. Only with "21", I thought, is it possible to have eleven Tigers remaining.



But this chart raises a question.

It seems that they organised and numbered their Tigers to have 11 operational Tigers. The first two platoons are full strength, and the third platoon is smaller because they ran out of Tigers there.

If the damaged Tiger "21" is on this chart, it's not in the third platoon; we know who those two Tigers are. It would have to be in the first or second platoon.

The question is: why would you assign a role to a Tiger that is full of holes? A Tiger with penetrations of the turret and hull? Was it reparable?

This question may be answered by a curious entry in the book "Trail of the Tigers" by Ron Klages. It states that not 20, but 21 Tigers were delivered to s.Pz.Abt.501. The final Tiger is one that we have not noticed in photos. It was, according to the book, delivered on 9 December 1942, and its chassis number was 250059.

That is a much higher chassis number than those of the other 20 Tigers. This mysterious Tiger, if it existed, would have a large tactical number painted on it, but it would look different to the other Tigers of this company. It would have a turret side hatch and extended front hull.

So, is this an error in Ron's book, or did this extra Tiger arrive? Because it would neatly answer the question that I asked above.

There is a list of Tigers found in Tunisia by a British officer. We can recognise many of the tanks listed in it, although there are a few obvious errors and much missing information.

One item in the list is a Tiger with chassis number 250059, manufacturer "dkr", year of manufacture 1942. It was found with its turret missing, demolished.

If these are two errors, it's a curious coincidence that the chassis number matches.

Is this Tiger sitting in front of our eyes, somewhere in the organisational chart that I drew?

David

Thema: Help needed on Aberdeen Tiger
David Byrden

Antworten: 21
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15.07.2017 09:28 Forum: sPzAbt.501/424

Zitat:
Original von Allen Dail
So your new theory of it being 221 then then as 21 to replace lost original 21 at Robaa and then 712 and no 821.
Or this 221 to 21 then 821 and finally 712.
Regards Allen


There was an "8" on it!
I propose this sequence;

221 -> 21 -> 81 -> 712

The account in "Tiger without a home" seems very assured:

"The first beginning with a pair of twos, with the last
digit remaining undetermined. The second beginning with an eight, followed by a two"

Of course he could not determine which digits appeared together, so he could not be sure of the complete numbers, but when he tells us the "7" was on top of "8" and that was on top of "2", we know from independent research that he was correct. So I believe him about the "pair of twos".

David

Thema: Help needed on Aberdeen Tiger
David Byrden

Antworten: 21
Hits: 15245

14.07.2017 01:29 Forum: sPzAbt.501/424

Returning to the question of this tank's tactical numbers:



We have this photo proving that Tiger "712" was "21".



In fact, careful examination of the left side of "712" shows that the "1" digit in "712" is the same digit from "21".

But we also have the claim, in "Tiger without a home", that a "2" existed under this "1".

I have enhanced the best available photos of both sides of the turret but I cannot see a "2" under the "1". I can only assume that the author discovered it by removing paint.

If this is true, then the Tiger was "221" as well as "21" !

Strange as it may seem, this theory fits the evidence. There are two things that support it:

1. At the Robaa attack a Tiger (231) was destroyed and another Tiger was damaged so badly that we never see it again. We don't know the number of this ruined Tiger. From the account of the battle we know that it was near the front of the attacking column, which consisted of the 2nd company.

Now, it is reasonable to imagine that the company commander's tank "21" would be near the front of the attack. Suppose that "21" became badly damaged and could not be used again. Then the company commander requires a replacement tank. Suppose he requires Tiger "221" for himself. Then it would be renumbered as "21". And so that explains these two numbers of our Tiger.



2. If you look at the numbers painted on these Tigers of the 501, you will see that they are approximately near the middle of the available space. The space extends from the vision port to the pistol port, and the artist places himself in the middle of that.



But look at the number "21" painted on our Tiger. We can see the left side, and we know where it was on the right side because we can see the "1".



On both sides, the number "21" is strangely placed to the left of the available space. Take this photo; the number "8" takes the same place as the old number "2", and the "1" has remained, therefore the number "21" is crowded against the pistol port.

In fact, if the leading "2" is preserved, there is room to fit "221" on both sides. We can explain this; somebody took "221" and changed it to "21".

What do you think?

David

Thema: Photo locations
David Byrden

Antworten: 120
Hits: 50059

12.07.2017 11:40 Forum: sPzAbt.501/424

I've posted my reasons why I think Tiger 712 was in an outdoor depot near Mateur. Critics are welcome.

Tiger 712 at Mateur



David

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